Friday, June 5, 2009

Timeline of the Marvelous Work according to section 88

In previous posts I have alluded to the fact that I am open to the possibility that the Servants have already returned and that I am looking forward to the appointed time when the Servants appear to the world in general, or at least to those who are watching..


I suspect that some people feel I am making that assumption simply because many of my timeline calculations indicate that the Servants should have returned to the earth by now, probably sometime in 2008.


Additionally, if the President Elect prophecy pertains to the President Elect of the last election, rather than the next one, which I believe it does, then that would be another reason to believe the Servants have previously returned.


What you might be surprised to realize however, is that it is not just my timeline calculations and the President Elect prophecy that cause me to feel that the Servants have returned.


The plain and simple fact of the matter is that modern revelation indicates that when the Servants return to the earth, they have two assignments to quietly complete BEFORE they are revealed to the world in general and sent forth to testify and warn the people for the last time.


I think many of us, myself included, have had a tendency in the past to assume that the Servants immediately return in power and start testifying and warning the world, but that is actually not what the scriptures reveal.


In this post I am going to itemize, chronologically, what takes place when the 3rd watch opens up, from the time that the servants of the Lord return to this earth.


The following events and associated chronology represents my interpretation of what the infinite and infallible word of God is saying various passages found in section 88.


The first four phases pertain to the Marvelous Work in the final generation of probationary time, in the sixth seal (or during the sixth one thousand year period). The additional four phases that follow, take place in the Seventh Seal leading up to the paradisaical millennium which begins when Michael declares that there shall be time no longer. (There is a possibility that the testimony of thunderings, lightnings and earthquakes in phase four is in the same time frame of the angels flying in the midst of heaven in phase five, depending on how you choose to read it)


Phase One
The First Laborers must Organize and Prepare Themselves


Verses 74-79 The first thing the Servants do when they return to this earth in the 3rd watch is to assemble themselves together to organize themselves, prepare themselves, sanctify themselves, purify their hearts and cleanse their hands and their feet before the Lord, so that He can make them clean.


This is done so that Christ can testify unto their Father and God as well as to Christ’s God that the first laborers are clean from the blood of this current generation.


This enables Christ to fulfill the great and last promise that he had previously made to them back in the 2nd watch when he had given them the anointing of the 1st comforter which is the promise of eternal life. (see verses 1-5 see also Isa 45, 61 and Dan 9 regarding the ancient prophecies about the “anointing” that would take place in the latter days. Although the anointing took place in 1833, the fulfillment of the anointing was to take place “when I will” (see verse 75), a prophetic phrase having reference to an unspecified future time in the 3rd watch when the redemption of Zion is to take place (see the use of the exact same phrase in the parable of the redemption of Zion 101:60)


From the time the first laborers of the last kingdom return, going forth, they are to continue in prayer and fasting and to teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom. During this time the grace of God shall attend them as they are instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel, in all things that pertain to the kingdom of God that is expedient for them to understand pertaining to their callings.


This period of preparation will include prophecies of things that will shortly come to pass having to do with wars, the perplexities of nations, the judgments that are on the land, and knowledge of countries and kingdoms.


These first laborers must have an understanding of these things in order to be prepared in all things when the Lord shall send them AGAIN to magnify the calling whereunto they were called and to magnify the mission with which they have been commissioned. (the knowledge of countries and kingdoms is critical for their assignment to take the proclamation to the governors of all of the countries and kingdoms of the world.)


These first laborers of the last kingdom are to tarry during this time of preparation instead of going forth declaring the gospel. During this time they are to labor diligently that they may be perfected in their ministry for when they go forth at future time among the Gentiles for the last time, to bind up the law and seal up the testimony and to prepare the Saints for the hour of judgment which is to come.


These remarkable passages seem to indicate that they will be returned to the earth as mortals, instead of as translated, angelic or resurrected beings and that they will probably need to be secluded from the world during their time of preparation!


What a strange act!


It would further indicate that to a large extent, these men will pretty much be continuing from where they left off when they left this world which will require them more than ever to study current affairs and customs as well as to actuate the fullness of the gospel and the gifts of the spirit in their lives to a greater degree than they did during the 2nd watch.


I have often found it curious that the following passages in section 88 imply that the servants return as mortals with physical needs. It is truly humbling to think that as mortals they will need to be supported by guardian angels and will need people to feed them, clothe them and give them money;


Behold, I send you out to reprove the world of all their unrighteous deeds, and to teach them of a judgment which is to come.


And whoso receiveth you, there I will be also, for I will go before your face. I will be on your right hand and on your left, and my Spirit shall be in your hearts, and mine angels round about you, to bear you up.


Whoso receiveth you receiveth me; and the same will feed you, and clothe you, and give you money.


And he who feeds you, or clothes you, or gives you money, shall in nowise lose his reward.


And he that doeth not these things is not my disciple; by this you may know my disciples.” (88:87-91)

[ Editorial Note: Although it would make sense that the first laborers of the last kingdom would organize themselves in Kirtland where they will teach each other the doctrines of the kingdoms and prepare themselves to go forth into all the world from there, the following statement from Joseph Smith may indicate that the organization and preparation may take place in Nauvoo; "

Since our arrival in this place[Nauvoo] there has been [one] special and one general conference of the church, and the twelve have been called to tarry at home for a season, and stand in their lot next to the first Presidency and assist in[counseling] the brethren and in the settling of emigrants &c., and the first great object before us, and the saints generally, is to help forward the completion of the Temple and the Nauvoo House; buildings which are now in progress according to the revelations, and which must be completed to secure the salvation of the church in the last days, for God requires of his saints to build him a house wherein his servants may be instructed, and endued with power from on high, to prepare them to go forth among the nations, and proclaim the fullness of the gospel for the last time, and bind up the law and seal up the testimony, leaving this generation without excuse, and the earth prepared for the judgments, which will follow. In this house all the ordinances will be made manifest, and many things will be shown forth, which have been hid from generation to generation."]


Phase Two
The First Laborers are sent forth
to make a Solemn Proclamation to all those who govern


Verse 80 reveals that the First Laborers of the Last Kingdom are being prepared to go forth on two separate assignments in the 3rd watch. One is to MAGNIFY a CALLING they have been CALLED to do. The other is to fulfill a MISSION they have been COMMISSIONED to do.


Very little distinction is made in this verse about the two separate assignments because one of their callings was only briefly mentioned previously in D&C 1:23. It reveals that they would be proclaiming the gospel to kings and rulers, but no details are given about this assignment at that time.


It was not until 1841 wherein it is explained in section 124 that their first missionary assignment is to make a solemn proclamation of the gospel to all the KINGS of the world, to the honorable PRESIDENT ELECT and to all of the GOVERNORS of all of the US and all of the GOVERNORS of the nations of the world.


In other words, their first calling is directed exclusively to all those who GOVERN. (Their second mission will be to all those who are governed.)


Their message to all those that govern is to take heed to the light and glory of Zion. For it will be the SET TIME to favor her.


This warning will contain prophecies telling those that Govern what will befall them in a time to come. This proclamation will leave the Governors of the World without excuse. Those who refuse to humble themselves and turn over their kingdom and dominion to he whose right it is, will be visited in the day of visitation when God shall unveil the face of his covering and appoint the portion of the oppressor among hypocrites, where there is gnashing of teeth. (see D&C 124:2-11)

[Editorial Note: this phase is not very clear as to when it fits in chronologically. It is possible that the proclamation goes forth to the govenors first, then the first laborers prepare themselves to go forth unto the nations]


Phase Three
First Laborers sent forth among the Gentiles for the last time
To prepare the Saints for the hour of judgment


Verses 84-85 Finally, after the proclamation is sent forth unto those who govern and an event takes place that enables the First Laborers to reclaim the cornerstone of Zion, the First Laborers of the Last Kingdom are sent forth among the gentiles to warn and testify for the LAST TIME to BIND UP THE LAW, SEAL UP THE TESTIMONY, AND PREPARE THE SAINTS FOR THE HOUR OF JUDGMENT WHICH IS TO COME that their souls may escape the desolation of abomination which awaits the wicked, both in this world and in the world to come.


It is during this time that the elect are gathered out of Babylon. (this is the first harvest of souls)


Phase Four
After the LAST Testimony cometh Wrath


Verses 88-91 After the First Laborers of the Last Kingdom have given their final testimony and warning to the gentiles, it will be followed by the testimony of earthquakes, thundering, lightnings, tempests and waves.


All things shall be in commotion (by cross referencing other prophecies we know that the time when all things are in commotion is also the time of major wars See Luke 21:9 D&C 45:26 JST Matt 24:29) and surely men’s hearts shall fail them and fear shall come upon all people. (all of the people who are left, who have not been gathered out)



Phase Five
Probation Ends, the 7th Seal Opens, Judgment Begins
A Trump Sounds, Angels declare time of God’s Judgment


Verses 92-94 Following the testimony of earthquakes, thundering, lightnings, tempests, waves and the associated commotions and wars, the beginning of the seventh seal and the hour of judgment is heralded by two trumps sounding one right after another.


The first trump is accompanied by angels flying through the midst of heaven crying with a loud voice saying “Prepare ye prepare ye O inhabitants of the earth for the judgment of our God has come. Behold and low, the Bridegroom cometh, go ye out to meet him”.


Do not confuse this with the similar verbiage found in the parable of the Ten Virgins.


The literal fulfillment of the cry that goes forth in the parable of the ten virgins has to do with the two groups of Saints who were believers in Christ and responded to the warning cry of the gospel that went forth in during probationary time, before the hour of judgment began. That event took place back in phase Three when the First Laborers of the Last Kingdom went forth for the last time among the Gentiles. ( The parable begins with a cry and it prepares the Saints for the great day of the Lord, this event mentioned in section 88 begins with a cry and a trump and it takes place at the great day of the Lord after probation has ended. (compare this event with the one mentioned in D&C 65:3 and 133:10 which are actually referring to the event mentioned in the parable)


That warning voice of the Servants during the last generation of probationary time is known as the “first harvest” when the Celestial Souls were gathered. (See verse 83!)


This event in phase five takes place after probation is over. It is known as the “second harvest” of terrestrial souls that takes place while the remainder of the people who are the tares of the earth are bound in bundles.


Following the first trump, there is a great sign in heaven and all people will see it. Rev 6:12-17 appears to indicate that the events mentioned in 88:87 pertaining to the earth reeling to and fro and the sun hiding his face, and the stars falling from heaven happens in conjunction with the great sign in verse 93. (Nevertheless, there is reason to believe that there may be two separate and distinct events involving the sun, moon and stars, one that takes place during the sixth seal and one that takes place during the seventh seal.)


Following the great sign in the heavens, the second trump sounds and another angel declares that the great church, the mother of abominations which is the tares of the earth is bound in bundles, ready to be burned.


Phase Six
Two trumps begin judgment, followed by silence
end of the ½ hour of silence- face of the Lord unveiled


Verse 95 indicates that there is a period of silence in heaven following the sounding of the first two trumps. We can only speculate what is taking place at this time.. perhaps the valid proxy work for the dead among the righteous and the continuation of wars and plagues and the consummation among the wicked.


Phase Seven
Unveiling Face of the Lord begins the redemption
Righteous are quickened, wicked judged


Verses 96-110 indicates that the sounding of trumps resumes following the half hour of silence. These trumps have to do with the quickening of the living and the dead and the redemption of the celestial and terrestrial souls of men while the telestial and sons of perdition will not come forth again until the little season, after the paradisiacal millennium.


They also announce that the great church has fallen and that Christ has finished his work enabling the Saints to be crowned and made equal with him.


You can read an excellent summary about the finishing of the work in the beginning of the seventh seal in section 77.


Following the trumps, and the various declaration, Father Adam who is Michael the Arch Angel declares “there shall be time no longer”, which ushers in the paradisiacal millennium.


Conclusion


As you can see from section 88, there is strong reason to believe that the first laborers of the last kingdom are returned to the mortal state that they were in just prior to their deaths. There may be an eternal law that requires this process.


Additionally, they don’t appear to have much more doctrinal knowledge than they had when they died nor do they have any more worldly knowledge about the countries and kingdoms they will have to visit and warn. Hence the need to study and teach each other and prepare.


Interestingly enough, they still need to become sanctified and purified before God.


This is consistent with the events of the foundation movement and the fact that the Saints went into a state of darkness and apostasy before being able to redeem Zion and live the laws of consecration.


It is almost as if there is a time warp that takes place and these good brethren are able to resume where they left off. It appears that their will be another session of the school of the Prophets and another solemn assembly in the 3rd watch.


If my interpretations of these amazing prophecies in section 88 are generally correct, it is not unreasonable to suppose that the servants have returned and begun and possibly even completed phase one, and that a solemn assembly has or will shortly take place.


It is also likely that the proclamation has been personally given to those who govern, calling upon them to give heed to the light and glory of Zion and informing them that the “set time” has come for God to favor her.


At the appointed time, an amazing event will take place which will establish the cornerstone of Zion.


At that time or shortly after, the Servants will go forth to those who are governed, inviting us to come out of Mistress Babylon and accept the fullness of the Gospel and the liberty by which we are made free.


Yes… I realize this stretches the imagination. I realize how this must appear to some people, I simply invite those of you who have read every numbered post and have a strong foundation in the doctrine of the three watches to carefully read this section very closely in the context given above while in the Spirit. There have been a few of you that have indicated that you have felt something different taking place during the last year, or that you feel something is about to take place… I don’t doubt it.


The signs are all around us. We are getting close to the set time.

27 comments:

Younger Dude said...

I fluctuate between excitement and apprehension for what could be just around the corner. Its like a part of me wants crazy things to start happening, but maybe not for the most spiritual reasons. Its like I want the thrill of it all - but the end of the world might be a little more thrill than I am ready for. This is not the movies - this is real life! When the swine flu hit, it dawned on me how fast things can go downhill. I wasn't sure how excited I was for the servants return anymore - lol. Let them hold off a little longer, I need to get married and have a family before angels start pouring out vials of wrath and we are in civil war. Sometimes I pray, sometimes I just put my head in the sand and watch LOST (does Kate like Jack or Sawyer?!), but sometimes, on my best days, I spend hours reading blogs about people returning from the dead. Thats how I cope - lol.

Anywho, on a much different note,
What does “there shall be time no longer” mean? Will we switch to God's kolob clock?

Someone who is watching said...

God lives in "eternity" mortal man lives in "time"

Prior to the fall of Adam, our earth was in a different universe.

The fall resulted in a literal fall of this planet wherein it fell from the celestial sphere it was in to the one we are in now.

It probably went from a paradisaical realm in the celestial heavens in eternity to a fallen planet in temporal time.

The 8,000 year time line of the earth is composed of 7,000 years during which the earth we are on is in a fallen condition in "time".

For a "Space" of 1,000 years the earth will leave this part of the universe in temporal time and return to a paradisaical realm.

During that period, those on the earth will not reckon time in the same manner we do now... however, if we were to stay here during that period of time, the temporal time clock would show that the space of time during which the earth is gone from here is 1,000 years.


When it is time to leave temporal time, Father Adam will declare that "there shall be time no longer".

Time is hard to describe. I prefer to describe it as a chronological sequence of events.

Webster describes it, among other things, as;

"A particular portion or part of duration, whether past, present or future. The time was; the time has been; the time is; the time will be.... A space or measured portion of duration."

Joseph Smith speaks of time as being somewhat relative, based on the particular planet that one is on;

"In answer to a question which I William Clayton proposed to him as follows, 'Is not the reckoning of gods time, angels time, prophets time & mans time according to the planet on which they reside he answered yes"

God lives in eternity wherein the reckoning of events is not limited to a chronological sequence of duration. Rather all events that we perceive to have been in the past, present or future are always before God;

"But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.
The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim."

Di spite the fact that all things are continually before God, the scriptures indicate that even he still has some type of reckoning.

They indicate that a thousand years in temporal time is like unto one day for God.


Now then, having addressed that issue, Who does Kate like? Jack, or Sawyer?

Younger Dude said...

I am attached to time! I like it. I don't want it to go away - lol.

Your explanation makes sense and appeals to my need for some form of reckoning. I don't want to get to the "time no longer" phase and suddenly lose all measure of time.

On to something else.

You said:
"This is done so that Christ can testify unto their Father and God as well as to Christ’s God that the first laborers are clean from the blood of this current generation."

Is this the "other" hard to refute Adam-God doctrine you promised to explain sometime?

Someone who is watching said...

It does have to do with that doctrine.

Thanks for reminding me about that, I still need to do a post on the "other" Adam God Doctrine that Brigham taught.

But for now, let me just say that verse 75 infers that the God who created Christ may be different than the God that created us.

While Christ is affectionately referred to as our "elder brother" sometimes, I would submit that it is incorrect to assume that he was created in the same generation of of organized intelligence that the inhabitants of this world were created in.

In fact, the scriptures state that he is the God that created us.

If in fact he went through a mortal probation and eventually attained Godhood before coming to this earth to atone for our sins, it stands to reason that he was created by a God further up the latter than the God that created us.

I wish you would hurry up and get married so that I can get into some really deep doctrine with you.

Malachi said...

Hi there watcher,
As always I deeply appreciate you, your ideas and your blogs.

I don't think it's totally important that we agree on everything without the 1st Elders around. But for discussion sake here's some of my thoughts and reasons.

I agree whole heartily with phases 1-4. I see them all occuring in the 6th seal. But I also place your phase 5 in the 6th seal.

I see the 7th seal beginning with the half hour of silence and your phase 6.

I come to this conclusion when I compare Rev 8:1 where it says that when the 7th seal is opened there is silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. So therefore the 7th seal doesn't begin in 88 until verse 95 where the half hour of silence begins.

I believe that the half hour of silence gets it's name because there are no trumps. So I don't see angels sounding trumps during that time period.

I also compare the angels of 88:92 with the three angels in Rev 14:6-10 which would place these two references of angels flying through the midst of heaven in the 6th seal.

Finally I believe that probation, where men can repent of their evil, ends when the trump sounds both long and loud and the wicked are sealed up to their destruction which also takes place just before the opening of the 7th seal.

For what it's worth there you go Bro Watcher.

Someone who is watching said...

Malachi my friend-

In responding to this post you made the following statement;

"I see the 7th seal beginning with the half hour of silence and your phase 6."

But on the Anarchy site several days ago you made this statement;

"I believe that the 7th seal is opened by the Lamb and the 1/2 hour of silence begins in 2012 a little over 20 years before the 7th thousand years begins."

It seems that in the first comment you are saying the half hour of silence is in the beginning of the seventh seal. Yet in the second comment you made, it sounds like you are saying that the half hour of silence begins 20 years before the seventh seal..

Am I missing something here?

I want to respond to your remarks, but I can't hit a moving target... you need to stand still for me. lol

Watcher

ldsanarchy said...

A couple of days ago I posted a response to YD's question about "there shall be time no longer." Did my comment not go through or is it still in moderation?

Someone who is watching said...

LDSAnarchist

I don't recall seeing a comment to YD come in from you.

Please resubmit

Watcher

ldsanarchy said...

Okay, I will resubmit (according to my memory...)

Younger Dude, my understanding of why "there shall be time no longer" is because the Earth will be captured by a brown dwarf star. It will no longer orbit our current Sun. Here is a description from holoscience:

"The most benign situation for life in an Electric Universe is inside the electrical cocoon of a brown dwarf star. Radiant energy is then evenly distributed over the entire surface of any planet orbiting within the chromosphere of such a star, regardless of axial rotation, tilt, or orbital eccentricity.

"The exceedingly thin atmosphere of such stars has the essential water and carbon compounds to mist down onto planetary surfaces. The reddish light is ideal for photosynthesis. Such a model provides one reason why the Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence (SETI) project is unlikely to succeed. Any advanced civilization on such a planet will be unaware that the universe exists outside its own stellar environment, and radio communication through the glow discharge of the star is impossible!"

This is why the Earth will receive its paradisaical glory, becoming again like the Garden of Eden. Conditions within the electrical cocoon are such that there is no day and night, only a constant day, no matter where you are on the planet.

To understand this stuff, you've got to learn about plasma cosmology. I recommend that you read everything on holoscience for starters, if you are not familiar with plasma cosmology. Hope this helps a little.

Malachi said...

Hi there Watcher,

This is communication at it's best just like we talked about last week at the monastary.

I don't see what problem exists with the two quotes. I'm seeing my communications as being very consistent. So is it my english or my mind that's floating around in outer space?


"I see the 7th seal beginning with the half hour of silence and your phase 6."

"I believe that the 7th seal is opened by the Lamb and the 1/2 hour of silence begins in 2012 a little over 20 years before the
7th thousand years begins."

Where's the conflict?

Someone who is watching said...

Malachi

I am going to need to use two replies since my comments exceed 4,000 characters.

Part One

I guess the conflict, or confusing thing in my mind is that one of your statements appears to put the ½ hour of silence completely in the seventh seal (seventh temporal millennium) while the other comment you made states that it begins in the sixth seal (sixth temporal millennium), 20 years before the beginning of seventh seal (seventh temporal millennium).

I don’t see how that is possible without having an overlap similar to Edmonds… which you said you did not agree with.

If I understand some of your previous statements, you sometimes interpret the scriptural usage of a “seal” to be one of the 7 temporal millenniums as defined by JS in section 77 and other times you do not feel that the term should be interpreted that way.

I disagree with that, and don’t think you have provided a scriptural basis for your belief, but, that doesn’t mean that your feelings are wrong about that.

As you have pointed out, we will know pretty soon.

The main purpose of this post was really just to emphasis that the Marvelous Work portion of the timeline (as provided in section 88) could be a soft beginning without trumps, earthquakes, bells and whistles, etc. and that it could have already started or could be very soon.

I only included the seventh seal portion of this post because section 88 addresses it.

Nevertheless, I appreciate you bringing it up so that we can discuss and better understand the various ways of interpreting the later events that happen in the seventh millennium that are described in the Book of Revelation.

As you know, I have vacillated back and forth over the years about which verse in section 88 marks the end of probation and the beginning of the hour of judgment.

As I told you the other day, I used to think that verse 92 which speaks of going out to meet the Bridegroom, was referring to the literal fulfillment of the parable of the ten virgins.

If such was the case, I think it would be taking place in the sixth temporal seal, during probationary time. However, after doing a key word phrase search on “inhabitants of the world”, I have come to realize, that this verse in not referring to the two groups of people, referred to as the wise and foolish virgins who all believe in Christ and are on their way to the marriage, rather, it is speaking about the ungodly world who are left after the wise virgins have already entered into the marriage.

...to be continued

Someone who is watching said...

Continued...

Furthermore, verse 92 is not telling them to go into the marriage, but rather it is announcing the time for them to be judged.

Now then, to provide a short recap of why I feel the way I do;

One of the story lines contained in section 88 begins in verse 84 which speaks about the need for the servants to bind up the law and seal up the testimony and to prepare the Saints for the HOUR OF JUDGMENT WHICH IS TO COME.

The very next time that section 88 mentions the word judgment is in verse 92.

“FOR THE JUDGMENT OF OUR GOD IS COME”

It seems to me that verse is referring to the hour of judgment referred to back in verse 83.

Shortly after the ominous declaration in verse 92, we are informed that the wicked tares of the earth have all been bound in bundles… which indicates to me that they have been judged and their agency has now been taken away.

It seems to me that the scriptures and common sense indicate that the time of judgment takes place after probation is over.

I don’t think the Lord is going to do a final judgment on anyone before their time of agency and probation has been completed.

Section 77 states that it is in the beginning of the seventh seal that God will “finish his work” complete the salvation of man” and “JUDGE ALL THINGS”.

Being bound in bundles sounds to me like the RESULTS of the judgment that has already taken place. This would provide a confirmation that the hour of judgment and the seventh temporal millennium did begin in verse 92.

Having said all that, I reserve the right to change my mind at any time without notice.

I appreciate your comments and acknowledge that you have possibly spent more time in Book of Revelation than I.

As the resident expert on this topic I value your insight and input.

Watcher

Malachi said...

Wow Watcher thanks for that effort in presenting your concerns. Since you are the only one who seems to be interested in what I've said it would be a lot easier to clean this up face to face and yet there is some virtue in the thinking process required to write thoughts down.

Several things popped out at me as I read your comments. I certainly agree that my presenation can be confusing but that it still boils down, at least to me, that there is a differece in the terminology of the opening of the 7th seal and the 7th thousand year period of time. Section 77:12 doesn't say that the Lord finishes his work with the opening of the 7th seal (which I believe is 2012). It says that he finishes his work with the seventh thousand years (which we all agree is 2033).

But that is all old hat though still confusing and maybe we can chew on that some more later on. More interesting to me is your interpretation of 88:92. I appreciate your thinking but can't agree with it.

Verse 92 not only says that the judgment of our God is come but also that the bridgroom cometh go ye out to meet him.

I think that this verse speaks of two things.

1. Verse 92 begins the final process of warning and sealing up the wicked (C/R Section 1:1-5) that will be accomplished by verse 94 where is says they are bound in bundles. I think D&C 1:1-5 is speaking of this time as the servants switch from their soft beginning in 88:74-83 to one of going forth and no one can stop them.

2. And because of the statment in verse 92 "the bridgroom cometh go ye out to meet him" I believe is calling the wise virgins to the marriage. It begins a process of bringing in all the wise virgins who are (1Ne14:12) "the saints of God...upon all the face of the earth" into the chambers of Nauvoo.

I believe that probation is over, done with, finished in 88:94 with the trump long and loud and the tares are bound in bundles, not in 88:92.

I can certainly see what you are saying about 88:83-84 about preparing the saints for the hour of judgment. But I believe that the saints have to gathered into the chambers of Nauvoo first before they can finish the process of sealing up the law and binding up the testimony. Not only do I think that 88:87 is out of place but also that 88:84 is speaking of a longer process that is begun by the gathering of the saints and is completed in Nauvoo when the trump sounds both long and loud.

Someone who is watching said...

Malachi

Regarding your statement;

"And because of the statment in verse 92 "the bridgroom cometh go ye out to meet him" I believe is calling the wise virgins to the marriage"

If you are correct, then the ten virgins in the parable would represent the whole world including the ungodly, not just the two groups of believers.

Have you done a key phrase search on "inhabitants of the world"?

I guess we can just a agree to disagree on this for now.

Someone who is watching said...

Malachi

One other clarification

I said;

"Section 77 states that it is in the beginning of the seventh seal that God will “finish his work” complete the salvation of man” and “JUDGE ALL THINGS”."

you responded to my above statement claiming that I said that "the Lord finishes his work with the opening of the 7th Seal, which is not what I said;

"Section 77:12 doesn't say that the Lord finishes his work with the opening of the 7th seal (which I believe is 2012). It says that he finishes his work with the seventh thousand years (which we all agree [begins in]2033)."


Perhaps the best thing to do is to simply provide the quote from D&C 77 so that we won't superimpose our own words.

"We are to understand that as God made the world in six days, and on the seventh day he finished his work, and sanctified it, and also formed man out of the dust of the earth, even so, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years will the Lord God sanctify the earth, and complete the salvation of man, and judge all things and shall redeem all things except that which he hath not put into his power, when he shall have sealed all things unto the end of all things..."

One other thing, if your interpretation is correct, that verse 92 represents the waking up of the ten virgins and the gathering of the righteous elect to Nauvoo, then the ministry of the servants in phase three of the time line will have failed to gather the elect and they will not be gathered until after the wrath of the elements in phase four.

I think that is inconsistent with other scriptures.

of course, one major issue having to do with this is whether the five wise virgins are the celestial or terrestrial saints.

If indeed the wise virgins are celestial, I believe they are gathered out in the first harvest, during the ministry of the first elders of the last kingdom, when the bridegroom has returned in secret, BEFORE the remaining wicked inhabitants of the world are called to meet the bridegroom when he comes in his glory.

Malachi said...

Hi Watcher,

Sorry for misquoting you, It wasn't my intention. My intent was to make a distinction between the phrases "opening of the 7th seal" and the "7th thousand years".

I thought I read you using the first phrase "opening of the 7th seal" which I didn't read in 77:12my mistake.

That was it.

As for the inhabitants of the earth. Yes I did check that out and of course it's the wicked. But I don't see a problem with the saints being gather in unto one place at the same time the final warning going out to the inhabitants of the world.

Personally I appreciate these discussions with you, I hope you do also. Most of my study is inside my own beady little head and it helps clarify when I have a chance to express it out loud. Thank you for your time and effort.

Someone who is watching said...

Malachi

I really appreciate your comments and your willingness to challenge what I say when you disagree.

That is the process by which we learn.

There is something about writing our thoughts down that is sometimes more helpful than verbal communications.

I am very open to your interpretation of 92... in fact I thought of another passage of scripture in section 58 that appears to substantiate your interpretation.

Perhaps we can discuss it in our weekly telestudy tomorrow.

Watcher

TruthSeekerToo said...

I'm way out of my league, but I have a comment.

You guys are touching a bit on the 10 virgin parable.
I feel strongly that there is another group of people involved that are "higher" than the virgins.
In other words, I believe there is a group that is ONE with Christ (the bride?) and the virgins belong to Christ.

Sorry if this doesn't relate to the topic. I will probably have to read this 5-6 times to get it.

Someone who is watching said...

TruthSeekerToo

Thank you for sharing your belief about parable.

One can argue that the wise virgins are invited to the marriage but do not represent the Bride.

Perhaps they are friends of the bridegroom or the brides maids.

That would be consistent with your belief that there is another group who is one with the bridegroom. (However the bride and bridegroom are not usually "one" until after the marriage ceremony.)

This scenario would strongly suggest that the wise virgins are terrestrial instead of celestial.

I am open to that possibility and can think of several reasons why that might be the case..

On the other hand, terrestrial law is the law of justice, not mercy.. and therefore, taking the holy spirit as their guide seems a little inconsistent with those who live the law of justice, unless they take the holy spirit as their guide AFTER their pain, and AFTER they are judged for their works as are men in the flesh, etc.

Another consideration to be considered, is that the parable begins by saying the Kingdom of Heaven shall be likened to ten virgins which took their lamps and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

Is the kingdom of Heaven being likened to ten virgins or is it being likened to ten virgins and a bridegroom?

The JST provides additional clarification by prefacing the parable with;

"And then, at that day, before the Son of Man comes..."

Of course now we need to determine if the JST is referring to an event taking place in the sixth day before the Son of Man comes in secret, or is it referring to the seventh day before the Son of man comes in his glory.

If indeed the sum total of the inhabitants of the kingdom of heaven are being likened to five wise and five foolish virgins, or in other words two categories of souls, then that would suggest that during the day being mentioned there will be two classes of souls in the kingdom, which would probably be celestial and terrestrial, which would indicate that the wise virgins are celestial.

Hopefully I have caused enough confusion here to motivate other comments as to why the wise virgins are either terrestrial or celestial.

Malachi said...

Hi truth seeker too,

I was showing my wife the last few comments on the parable and as I was reading the parable I think I see what you are referring to. So I wanted to paraphrase it and see if that's what you meant.

1. one group (verse 9, the foolish telestial virgins) is sent off to buy and sell.

2. one group is ready (verse 10, is the first and only mention of the Celestial) and goes into the marriage with him.

3. finally a group of virgins (verses 11-12, the wise terrestrial virgins) come wanting to enter and the Lord tells them he doesn't know them.

If that's what you are saying, I like it a lot. Is that it?

TruthSeekerToo said...

Very good points Watcher.

Diggity Dog, Malachi! That is awesome. I actually was acting on a hunch/intuition. I hadn't played it out in my mind yet. All I feel is that there are 3 groups, I assumed one was the bride.

There are several things we can explore that might be helpful to figuring this out.

We need to remember that the Jewish marriage custom is much different from ours.
The couple actually has a marriage covenant with eachother before the marriage celebration and consumation-12 months later. In fact, they would need a formal bill of divorce within that 12 months-before the marriage is consumated.

So, the 10 virgins are at the point where the bridegroom has come to claim his bride. Is that correct? If so, it might strengthen my position since the bride & groom are one in a legal (and maybe spiritual) sense just not a physical sense.

The bride is already at the feast. Does she play into the parable at all?

Why two groups of 5? The number 5 is often used to denote "carnal senses" or materiality. Would 10 signify the tribes of Isreal?

The biggest impact comes from vs 11 & 12. Gives me goosbumps. We have heard that saying before!

3 Nephi 14:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name, and in thy name have cast out devils, and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them: I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Isaiah 29:13 ¶ Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

It is also interesting that in the very next parable there are 3 groups/individuals talked about. Ok, I'm gonna do some more study on this...

Fabledsog said...

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

(New Testament | Revelation 21:2)

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

(New Testament | Revelation 21:9 - 10)

Someone who is watching said...

Malachi, TruthSeekerToo and Fabledsog-

The comments you guys gave caused me to take a second look at the Ten Virgins

http://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/2009/06/16/a-second-look-at-the-ten-virgins/

TruthSeekerToo said...

My burning question now is:

Will they find us or do we find them?

Someone who is watching said...

That is certainly an important question.

It appears to me that once the missionary part of the great work begins the servants will be sent out to preach and find the elect.

However it is possible that in the very early phases of the work, when the servants are making their preparations and perhaps even while they are dealing with the latter day pharaoh that perhaps there will be those who are watching that will seek them out.

Jay Mackley said...

I come into the middle of this conversation and so I am not up on the the prior topics but I think it great to discuss these issues and the interpretation of prophecy while maintaining an open mind on the more "difficult" parts. After all, the signs of the times are intended for the believers and followers of Christ. The wicked don't comprehend them are are going to be quite surprised:

1 BUT of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
(New Testament | 1 Thessalonians 5:1 - 6)

Someone who is watching said...

Jay that looks like an awesome scripture search engine on your site..

I look forward to playing with it.

Did you build it?

Was it built from scratch or does it use some kind of generic word cruncher software?

Can you do Boolean searches?

Can you put the complete JST in it?

Any advantages over the search engine on the church site?

Watcher