In my next post I am going to show you how I interpret the prayer in section 65 which calls for the kingdom to go forth but first, I had a few replies the other night that I have been pondering and want to address. Some of them were posted, while some were blocked by yours truly.
The exercise in doing a united group petition for the kingdom to return was an amazing experience for me... In a number of ways. It was wonderful to know there are others who are feeling anticipatory for the return of the Lord, his Servants and his kingdom.
It was surprising to me how quickly word spread to others with such little notice. One of the interesting things about it is that several others joined in with us that don’t necessarily understand and/or agree with the three watches doctrine yet they do believe that the kingdom needs to return and they wanted to participate.
It was a little bit of an eye opener to me.
First I would like to share a comment that really demonstrates the disconnect between those of us who have begun to see the three watch doctrine in the scriptures and many of our brothers and sisters in the gospel who don’t see it. The first comment was by NEPT;
“A few weeks ago in EQ meeting, one of the EQ pres was teaching about Zion, but in the contemporary sense that is misconstrued from its meaning in the scriptures. I added my two cents that Zion is much more literal than what was being discussed; that there were places designated by the Lord for his people, Zion would not be moved, and that one day those lands would be reclaimed. I also mentioned that we should be praying collectively for this to happen.
I found the response rather interesting. There was a universal feeling that I was getting ahead of myself, that Zion would come in due time when the saints had properly prepared for it, but at this time, we have so many things we need to do before Zion comes again. In essence, the saints would bring Zion themselves!
I wanted to shout, "Zion is coming, whether you are ready or not, so you best be ready!" Instead, I nodded and went back to reading the lesson manual.
Such is the life.”
Interestingly enough, TruthSeekerToo has been experiencing a similar thing as NEPT;
“NEPT-I am having a similar difficult time with the various lessons on Zion. All the talk about Zion being wherever you are, etc.”
And yet, she remembers learning about praying for the kingdom in Seminary or Church which goes to show that you really cannot stereotype what is taught and what is learned in the organizational structure across the board;
The idea of praying for the Kingdom to come is not new to me. I'm sure I learned it in seminary. I am suprised that it is new to so many others.
However, I think it is scary to most because most FEAR it. It is only because I am finally starting to understand the LOVE and mercy of the Great Jehovah that I can pray for these things.
I was a little surprised and taken back by the humility and integrity of Younger Dude who made the following comment;
“I have never even considered praying for the kingdom to come. I still feel very new and unfamiliar with a lot of these concepts. It honestly makes me nervous to think about praying for the servants to return - mostly cause I am not sure what that entails. The first time I read about Joseph returning, just like OWIW said, I imagined him coming and knocking on my door or something - lol. If this is all really going to happen - how and when is it all gonna go down? I guess it may be time to go reread the third watch posts.”
On the one hand, it is hard for me to understand how one can read the 50+ posts on this blog site and still not get the drift that servants are coming back with the keys to the kingdom… on the other hand;
a) I have been pondering these concepts for nearly 20 years and perhaps these concepts are not easy to assimilate in a few weeks, especially after a life time of being given a different paradigm.
b) I am a big part of the problem because I am a poor communicator. As I go back and review some of my old posts I am amazed at how poorly I present and explain things in the doctrines I am trying to convey! (all the more reason why you need to pay less attention to my pontificating and read the scriptural references in the spirit)
When Younger Dude says I am not sure what it entails, I am reminded of a passage from an unpublished revelation that Orson Pratt claimed he received:
“Indeed many of the very people who manifest so much zeal to warn others, and who pray so earnestly for my coming, have not themselves understood the Gospel nor obeyed it; and should I come, in answer to their prayers, it would be to their own destruction.”
One of the things I want to clarify is that I am not praying for the Lord to return in his glory… I am not praying for the end to come.
I am praying for the BEGINNING of the END to come which is the beginning of the last generation that Christ told his apostles about.
I am praying for the Servants to come and prepare the way for the Lord to come in secret for the third time, to nourish his vineyard for the last time preparatory to his coming in glory to destroy the wicked! ( See Jacob 5:70-72)
Cub made the following statement;
I'll be praying as well. This is a completely foreign concept to me, but in my quest for truth I am trying to be open to all possibilities right now.
Obviously Cub is someone who has not read all of the foundational posts leading up to this moment in time on the blog. (something I strongly recommend) How amazing is it that someone is that open to such a radical concept?
Then we have what I thought was a rather insightful observation from cds;
“Just a quick mention of how understanding the 3 watches make watching conference fun too, to see the comments made in context of having this understading or not. I thought it was interesting to see the new apostle Elder Anderson, talk about how we are living during the MWW and a couple of other comments that made it known that he is not aware of the 3 watches and how they will play out. Don't get me wrong I'm not worthy to sniff these men's shoes, I am so much more short of what I should be compared to them, so it's not critism just an observation.”
It is really fun and exhilarating to come to a point of understanding wherein you are picking up on the subtle statements of others and being able to reference their accuracy (or otherwise) from what you have treasured up in your heart from the scriptures!
Dan made the following statement;
“I regularly pray for "thy kingdom come". That we might see and recognize the spokesman. that I might be a tool myself.
that thr time might come when a remnant is prepared in power.
We're so in. wish i'd read this earlier to spread the word.”
I am not very familiar with Dan, either because he is new the blog or because he doesn't reply much. I wish I knew his background. I suspect that he may be a fundamentalist or has friends that are because one of the comments I blocked was from a friend of his.
It is neat that we can all agree that the light is going to shine forth again without all having to be in a total unity of the faith on all of the details... after all, part of the reason the servants need to return is to set all of us in order and bring us all into a unity of the faith.. that includes doctrinal understanding as well.
Even I am going to have to repent of doctrinal errors. I am only 99.9% correct on what I teach… LOL
Mrs Malachi states;
“We think this is a fabulous idea! What a way to celebrate the true Christmas Eve! What better gift could we offer our Savior than contrite hearts united in prayer for the return of His servants, and the establishment of the cause of Zion. Which must come before His kingdom can come! Zion has been on our minds and in our hearts for as long as we can remember!”
She is reminding us that Lectures and Faith and the scriptures inform us that Zion must be established and a consecrated people must be awaiting the arrival of the Lord of the Vineyard before the Kingdom of Heaven can come. There is an important distinction between the kingdom of God on earth and the kingdom of Heaven.”
The Hell Raiser seems to be saying that perhaps we are not as repentant and as awake as we need to be in order to offer up prayers that will be heard;
“Prayers that will really bring the servants here will be those that come from hearts and minds that are exercised in discerning between Christ and Antichrist. They will come from people who realize that they have been overcome by the beast. They will come from people who have tried and failed to live without receiving benefits from that beast. They will come from the poor of the earth who refuse to partake of such benefits; who have not been "seduced to participate" in those benefits (See Heleman 6). They will come from people like those who escaped from the clutches of King Noah, but were later overcome by the wicked priest Amulon (I think), while developing a community in the land of Helam. The people cried all day long because the burdens inflicted upon them were so great. They later cried in their hearts because it was made illegal to pray out loud. At first the Lord made their burdens light, where they could not feel them. Then they were released from bondage, and they KNEW that their deliverance came only from the Lord.”
The Hell Raiser reminds me of the prophecy of Heber C Kimball which I hope is not a true prophecy;
“..Before that day comes , however, the Saints will be put to a test that will try the integrity of the best of them. The pressure will become so great that the more righteous among them will cry unto the Lord day and night until deliverance comes.
Then the Prophet Joseph and others will make their appearance and those who have remained faithful will be selected to return to Jackson County, Missouri and take part in the upbuilding of that beautiful city, the New Jerusalem."
So… are any of us crying out day and night for deliverance because the pressure is so great? We all live in different circumstances. Perhaps there are some of us who are crying out day and night. The prophesy by Kimball makes it sound as if the latter day Children of Israel are in a similar physical bondage as our ancient forefathers were in when Moses led them out.
Another possibility is that the crying out has to do with the physical distress related to poverty. The following is an excerpt from an unpublished revelation;
“..I am about to perform a great work upon the face of the earth saith the Lord, Mine indignation is about to be poured out without measure upon the heads of this nation and all the nations of the earth, and they shall not escape. The cry of the poor, the widow and orphan is ascending unto mine ears, saith the Lord, I am about to avenge the the cry of mine elect by laying low the oppressor and executing the decree of mine heart upon all the ungodly from among them…” ) Page 92 Unpublished Revelations
If that prophecy is true, is it referring to the Celestial Saints, or the Terrestrial Saints that need to be chastened before deliverance comes? Perhaps the Hell Raiser is right about us not being repentant or awake enough to utter an adequate prayer and thus we need to be chastened...
Frankly, that is one of the reasons I want to start crying out now… I really don’t want to wait until we are in physical bondage before I start crying out for deliverance!
Anyway, those are just a few of the comments that I wanted to respond to
As I mentioned before, there were a few comments that I blocked.
I didn’t post them because I didn’t want to cause confusion to new visitors about what I have been teaching about the three watches doctrine.
Nevertheless, I want these responders to be heard AND I want to respond to what they are saying AND I want to invite them to respond back if they would like to provide any scriptural support to their beliefs.
I will put their replies in red also.
The first fellow calls himself artman. He actually sent two similar replies probably because the first one was blocked so he tried again;
“Thanks for the idea of "thy kingdom come". To be involved in the invitation for the Lords return was a splendid idea. To read others of like minded, thought provoking testimonies helped the prayer go humbly through the heavens. It was a peiceful moment to end a great day. FYI-I just heard that Pres. Monson is from the tribe of Levi. That would explain maybe his calling at 24 to a bishop. Can anyone disprove this. I would like to be set straight. If not maybe he is the "mighty" one in Sec. 65.”
I have been praying and pleading for God to send His son to stop the wickedness and fulfill his promises. The work that I do sheds light to some dark workings of the advisary. See D&C 123:9-10,12,13-17. At times I wish I didn't know what my friends have endured. I am tired of the denial of authorities, saying these things are a figment of their imagination. I know more than I lead on. These are a sign of the times. We need to be of good cheer as the Prophet asked. My prayer is with you tonite. Thankyou for the invite. The dreams that I have been blessed with are not unique, but none the less important. Many have had the same dream. The spirt told to be silent because no one is listening. Its a burden to watch them go on ingoring the signs. It was hard to have Conference over. You do know what tribe Pres. Monson is from? He was 24 when he was made bishop. My info may be wrong. But I just learned this yesterday. Could he be the "Mighty" one in Section 65? I am not a scholar, but I am teachable".
Artman, I am aware of the rumor going around that President Monson is of the tribe of Levi. I have no clue if there is any truth to it. It is interesting that he didn’t go on a mission and that he was only 22 when they made him a Bishop. As to him being the one that is Mighty in section 65, on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the most likely and 1 being the least likely, I would give it a ZERO.
If you read my interpretation of section 65 on the next post it will become clear to you why.
The next person that replied and got blocked by the Watcher calls himself FabledSog
FabledSog has emailed me privately and given me some very interesting information which I may share at a later time. For now, here is part of what he posted in his reply;
“I'll be praying as well
Some of them might already be in our midst.And we know them not, waiting like sleeping giants.”
FabledSog I think is implying that the servants could be among us right now and simply not revealing who they are. He may also be implying that anyone of us could be one of the servants through the principle of transmigration.
Having written in previous replies and posts that I believe it is very possible that John the Baptist is the transmigration of Elijah the Prophet, I can’t hardly say that this speculation is not a possibility. HOWEVER on a scale of 1 to 10, I would give the possibility about a 2. Again the reasons for my belief on this will be obvious in the interpretation of section 65 which will be posted later.
The next person didn’t want to reveal himself. He obviously is a Mormon Fundamentalist or at least has leanings towards those beliefs;
“Hey Dan! MJ Says: Great to see others praying for deliverance! Pray with all our hearts! The Lords prayer refers to the REAL NEC (New and Everlasting Covenant)... preparing for and building up Zion... the Kingdom of God on Earth with him and his angels among us. First a people, then the place. Don't forget, the servant will be a man... so that MAY refer to being any one of us (most likely someone who is a decendent of Joseph Smith) endowed with the fullness of the priesthood... so our challenge for us is to personlly seek the Face of God and help others do the same. Another good sign will be that he will have the fruit of such PH... he will be performing miracles that which Moses, Nephi, 3rd Nephi, Alma, Amulek, Joseph Jr, etc performed.”
Again we have someone who seems to feel that anyone of us could be the transmigration of Joseph or Sidney... or perhaps they just feel that mortals will take over from here and we don't need the first laborers of the last kingdom to return.
I am guessing that when Anonymous says the Lords prayer refers to the “real” New and Everlasting Covenant, he is referring to the Spiritual Wife Doctrine as contained in section 132 and in the variations of that commandment that JS and BY and others lived.
Not to beat a dead horse, but the doctrine that you must have multiple wives taught in section 132 and the modified Spiritual Wife doctrine that was lived in Nauvoo and Utah in the early days are simply not consistent with the doctrine of Christ and the Law of Zion taught in the four standard works.
Furthermore, once a person comes to a knowledge of just how real and complete the Kirtland apostasy was PRIOR to the revealing and living of the Spiritual Wife doctrine, and once someone comprehends the correct interpretation of the allegory in Jacob which also makes it clear that only a small amount of “good fruit” was harvested from the foundation movement PRIOR to the introduction of the Spiritual Wife doctrines, it is “GAME OVER” for the Spiritual Wife Doctrine as a viable true doctrine.
In light of the allegory informing us that only a small amount of good fruit was harvested in the early years, it is interesting that of the few people identified in modern revelation as having been reserved by the Lord for the upcoming season, NONE of them lived the so-called higher law of Spiritual Wife Doctrine;
“That when he shall finish his work I may areceive him unto myself, even as I did my servant David Patten, who is with me at this time, and also my servant Edward Partridge, and also my aged servant Joseph Smith, Sen., who sitteth cwith Abraham at his right hand, and blessed and holy is he, for he is mine. D&C 124: 19, 130
Additionally, if the Spiritual Wife doctrine was true, Joseph Smith would have publicly taught it and the account of Jesus visiting the Nephites and teaching them the higher law of consecration would also have included it.
Having said that, I invite Dan’s friend, or MJ and anyone else to prove the Spiritual Wife Doctrine using the scriptures. Send your best argument in a reply and I will post it on my blog..
Moving on…
I am going to end this post with the following reply left by NEPT that was just posted in the comments section while I was writing this post. I love what he is saying because it captures the very essence of prayer. If we are being led by the spirit, we will be told what to pray for, just as Joseph Smith received the dedicatory prayer in section 109 by revelation and the petition for the kingdom to go forth in section 65 by revelation. This is one of the ways that the Holy Ghost acts as an intercessor;
“I think there is a heckuva lot about prayer that we can learn if we "sup" on 3 Nephi 19, but one verse that really sticks out to me is twenty-four...
24 And it came to pass that when Jesus had thus prayed unto the Father, he came unto his disciples, and behold, they did still continue, without ceasing, to pray unto him; and they did not multiply many words, for it was given unto them what they should pray, and they were filled with desire.
Although I'm sure you know who "gave unto them what they should pray", a related scripture spells it out neatly for us...
He that asketh in the Spirit asketh according to the will of God (D&C 46:30);
Have you ever wondered why it should be given to us by the Spirit what we should pray? Is it because there are times when our true needs are ambiguous, even clouded by our OWN desires? Revisiting the previous verse from 3 Nephi 19, we are told that the disciples "were filled with desire" as they prayed. It wasn't until they were blessed with the Spirit that the Lord's desires became theirs. Now we understand the following admonition from the Lord much better...
Be not ye therefore like unto [the heathen, who use vain repetitions,]: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
If Father knows what we need, then I think it is quite reasonable to follow the example of Christ and pray for those things he has instructed. Furthermore, as we do so, the scriptures are plain that the Spirit will dictate how we should pray. Heck, we might just learn something about prophecy, better yet, ourselves, in the whole process!
--I make here the obvious interjection that we must study the word of God in our minds and hearts, lest the same result befall us that did Oliver Cowdery (he took no thought, save it was to ask). But I'm satisfied that most of this group united in prayer has diligently searched in order to understand the state of the kingdom of God on earth and to recognize that the angels are waiting to come down and cleanse the land of Zion.--
In short, if we "want [our] prayers to be real and not contrived," then we should "hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray."
9 comments:
I have experienced twelve births; all at home. Each birth is a very sacred, looked-forward-to event. We have nine months to prepare for each birth. We pray to make sure we are acting under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. We pray the Lord will let us know if we should have the birth experience take place in the hospital. Each time we have received the confirmation that Home is the place to be.
My wife has very hard labors that last all day, and some times for days and weeks. As labor intensifies prayers get stronger, more frequent, and more meaningful. Real, uncontrived, fervent, and faith-filled prayers "goes with" the home birthing experience. Mainly because there is no doctor and hospital with all its trappings to rely on.
As the moment of birth draws closer, the prayers get stronger, and more faithful. It is not that the experience is bad or wrong, or the result of a bad choice. Pleasantness and peacefulness are lost in the intensity of the moment.
But "peace" and "pleasant" are not even issues in this type of experience. A birth is taking place, and as the moment of parturition draws near, focus becomes sharper, feelings get more intense, tears flow, and her pain becomes almost unbearable; and prayer becomes a pleading for the mercy of the Lord. It is actually more than a pleading. It is a demand for the powers of heaven to be made available. All attachment to stories of how sinful and undeserving I am are loosened and dropped. Stories of how unworthy I am to pray are dropped, and I just pray, and I pray hard. And my wife prays harder than us all.
I have heard it said that the Lord listens always to the prayers of mothers. And I see good reason in this. Heavenly Father also listens to the prayers of a husband for his wife, and he answers them!
"And the woman being with child, cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And she brought for a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and his throne."
Yes, I agree with Orson Pratt and others who said things would get much more intense than right now. Not that it is a bad thing though; it is just part of the birth experience.
"And we will plead with the Lord to have the condemnation lifted". Our prayers will be meaningful. Those of us who feel a little wimpy, will "fight manfully" We will loose ourselves and the attachments to what and who we thought we were in the intensity of the moment. Our spirits will match the spirits of the servants who are coming. We will step up to the plate and be part of what is occurring, or we will not.
I pray that we give up relying on what we are familiar with, and that we be willing to accept the unfamiliar "endowment" (See section 105) that will be necessary to enable us to endure and take part of the work of the Lord that is coming forth.
I don't believe in transmigration, nor do I imply it. But I do believe in restoration/renewing of the spirit of the man and his body that only he can pilot. I say pilot because the body is just a vehicle. Just alot more complex than the average machine. I'm sure there is a garage in heaven. But that's not the point. The point is the servants cant all be ministering angels. Why is that?
One thing, I don't feel that as a group we will be able to endure ministering of angels. Our minds wouldn't comprehend what they are trying to tell us. When we don't even do Aaronic ordinances correctly from the written word.
There has to be a preparation. Also there are scriptures specifically for the first laborers, ever seen an angel carry scriptures?(Angel Moroni different scenario, he doesn't count)
8 Therefore, thus saith the Lord unto you, with whom the priesthood hath continued through the lineage of your fathers—
9 For ye are lawful heirs, according to the flesh, and have been hid from the world with Christ in God—
10 Therefore your life and the priesthood have remained, and must needs remain through you and your lineage until the restoration of all things spoken by the mouths of all the holy prophets since the world began.
11 Therefore, blessed are ye if ye continue in my goodness, a light unto the Gentiles, and through this priesthood, a savior unto my people Israel. The Lord hath said it. Amen.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 86:8 - 11)The gospel movement from gentile to the Jews in the 2nd Watch, was to preserve the roots(lineage and priesthood).
Theres two types of heirs, Lawful Heirs, and Faithful Heirs. Its not hard to figure out the difference. We also have fallibility. But they wont lose their reward for their first commission.
Even though John the Baptist and the one who is like John the Baptist, has been and will be a voice of one who is crying the wilderness. The One who gave them power to do so, is the one that spiritually does it, since He hides in the light, that our eyes cant comprehend.
62 And again, verily I say unto you, my friends, I leave these sayings with you to ponder in your hearts, with this commandment which I give unto you, that ye shall call upon me while I am near—
63 Draw near unto me and I will draw near unto you; seek me diligently and ye shall find me; ask, and ye shall receive; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
64 Whatsoever ye ask the Father in my name it shall be given unto you, that is expedient for you;
65 And if ye ask anything that is not expedient for you, it shall turn unto your condemnation.
66 Behold, that which you hear is as the voice of one crying in the wilderness—in the wilderness, because you cannot see him—my voice, because my voice is Spirit; my Spirit is truth; truth abideth and hath no end; and if it be in you it shall abound.
67 And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.
68 Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will.
69 Remember the great and last promise which I have made unto you; cast away your idle thoughts and your excess of laughter far from you.
70 Tarry ye, tarry ye in this place, and call a solemn assembly, even of those who are the first laborers in this last kingdom.
71 And let those whom they have warned in their traveling call on the Lord, and ponder the warning in their hearts which they have received, for a little season.
72 Behold, and lo, I will take care of your flocks, and will raise up elders and send unto them.
73 Behold, I will hasten my work in its time.
74 And I give unto you, who are the first laborers in this last kingdom, a commandment that you assemble yourselves together, and organize yourselves, and prepare yourselves, and sanctify yourselves; yea, purify your hearts, and cleanse your hands and your feet before me, that I may make you clean;
75 That I may testify unto your Father, and your God, and my God, that you are clean from the blood of this wicked generation; that I may fulfil this promise, this great and last promise, which I have made unto you, when I will.
76 Also, I give unto you a commandment that ye shall continue in prayer and fasting from this time forth.
77 And I give unto you a commandment that you shall teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom.
78 Teach ye diligently and my grace shall attend you, that you may be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel, in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient for you to understand;
79 Of things both in heaven and in the earth, and under the earth; things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad; the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms—
80 That ye may be prepared in all things when I shall send you again to magnify the calling whereunto I have called you, and the mission with which I have commissioned you.
81 Behold, I sent you out to testify and warn the people, and it becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor.
82 Therefore, they are left without excuse, and their sins are upon their own heads.
83 He that seeketh me early shall find me, and shall not be forsaken.
84 Therefore, tarry ye, and labor diligently, that you may be perfected in your ministry to go forth among the Gentiles for the last time, as many as the mouth of the Lord shall name, to bind up the law and seal up the testimony, and to prepare the saints for the hour of judgment which is to come;
85 That their souls may escape the wrath of God, the desolation of abomination which awaits the wicked, both in this world and in the world to come. Verily, I say unto you, let those who are not the first elders continue in the vineyard until the mouth of the Lord shall call them, for their time is not yet come; their garments are not clean from the blood of this generation.
86 Abide ye in the liberty wherewith ye are made free; entangle not yourselves in sin, but let your hands be clean, until the Lord comes.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 88:62 - 86)
33 For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies.
34 They become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the elect of God.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 84:33 - 34)
Remember the Lord talks as is it was yesterday, for today, and for tomorrow. The trumpet of reunion of the first laborers is about to be blown.
Fabled
Love Monster,
I admit, I did not fully grasp the underling theme of your previous post relating to unified efforts in prayer for the kingdom, but your post above has 'touched the eyes of my understanding'. What excellent, excellent imagery.
Something wonderful is coming, but it comes with a price so great; an awakening to our awful state. I now can appreciate your concern, for prayers certainly are heightened when accompanied by the realization that we are far from God. But from such humility we are born again.
Yea, I say unto you, my son, that there could be nothing so exquisite and so bitter as were my pains. Yea, and again I say unto you, my son, that on the other hand, there can be nothing so exquisite and sweet as was my joy.
Thank you Love Monster, a very fine post indeed.
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And a warm thank you to FabledSog as well. Reading D&C 88 was hallowing.
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What a fantastic way to end the day.
Hell Raiser-
Having been through seven births including a home birth and a birthing center birth I can really appreciate and admire the faith you and your wife displayed in birthing so many children at home.
Your eloquent reminiscing of those births really added to the feeling and imagery behind the commentary provided in Revelation 12.
While I can appreciate and respect your choice to not participate in a unified prayer for the return of the kingdom, I find it puzzling that you feel compelled to discourage others who do feel inclined to offer a prayer that we have been commanded to offer.
I must say however that the opposing opinion you frequently offer often ends up being a blessing as it causes people to dig deeper and search out the truth with greater diligence. And those of us with a differing point of view are forced to scripturally prove our positions… which I shall now do.
Regarding the passage of scripture you used to suggest that the kingdom will not come until after the woman travails in the birthing process;
"And the woman being with child, cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And she brought for a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and his throne."
I would suggest that you are using a prophecy that doesn’t apply to the 3rd watch.
If you will continue beyond the passages you used, you will see that after the birth of the man-child, instead of the kingdom rolling forth in majesty and subduing the kingdoms of the world, as we know it will in the 3rd watch, the warning is made to the inhabitors of the earth because;
“the devil is come down unto you having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time”.
After that, the woman flees from the devil to her “Place” in the “wilderness” “where she is nourished for a time, times and half a time, from the face of the Serpent”
That hardly sounds like the stone has crushed the toe of the image and is beginning to roll forth as described in Daniel and in the allegory in Jacob!
Those passages in Revelation 12 that you quoted end by noting that “the dragon was wroth with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her seed…”
Again, it hardly sounds like the final return of the kingdom when the stone rolls forth conquering the kingdoms of the world!
The 66th chapter of Isaiah actually provides an applicable account of the return of the kingdom in the 3rd watch that provides a much different scenario than the one in Revelation 12.
If you will read the chapter heading and the entire chapter, I think the evidence is overwhelming that these passages actually do have to do with the 3rd watch.
It also challenges your supposition that the righteous Saints go through a birthing tribulation in order to bring forth the kingdom….
In this most curious chapter in Isaiah the Lord is less than happy with the apostate church and therefore places a curse upon them;
“I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.”
The narrative then turns to those among the wicked that actually believe in God and fear the Lord and tremble at the majesty of his word. We are informed that the Lord will be glorified and will appear to their “joy” while the wicked will be “ashamed”;
“Hear the word of the Lord, ye that tremble at his word; your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name’s sake, said, Let the Lord be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.”
The narrative now verifies what modern revelation and other prophetic passages of scripture have informed us, namely, that it begins with a “noise” from the “temple”
“A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the Lord that rendereth recompence to his enemies.”
Finally the shocking and illogical sequence of events is revealed. The kingdom is actually brought forth BEFORE the woman travails!
This is a great mystery that few people understand. Let me repeat, The kingdom is actually brought forth BEFORE the woman travails!
Here the prophetic word of the Lord as contained in Isaiah 66;
“BEFORE she travailed, she brought forth; BEFORE her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.”
There you have it. The coming forth of the kingdom in the 3rd watch is different from other watches.
The sequence is backwards.
It defies all logic.
The kingdom takes the world and the sleeping virgins by surprise while it appears to the joy of those that are wise ; it comes forth BEFORE the travail takes place!
As a verification that the translation is not flawed, Isaiah poses the following question in amazement;
“Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things?”
It truly does seem illogical that a woman would first bring forth and then travail afterwards!
Possibly speaking of the Nephite Zion that is mystically returned to the earth Isaiah asks;
“Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once?”
Finally the rest of the story is told, after the Man-child is brought forth, Zion is established. After Zion is established, she finally travails and brings forth her children;
“for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.”
Hence we see that things are not always as they appear nor do things always happen the way we assume that they should.
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
And so my friend, while I support your desire to wait until you are writhing in pain and agony I make no apologies for my desire to be found waiting, watching, willing and PRAYING, even it the fingers are pointing and people are mocking, I shall continue to believe in Santa Clause and to pray for the return of the kingdom.
I was not discouraging people to take part in the prayer. Actually, if I would have read your post when you sent it, I would have participated also. I was expressing a block that would not allow my full participation. I admitted that I am asleep. And that when I pray, I don't feel that they go anywhere. To illustrate how resigned I feel, I used as an example the waywardness of my older children, and how numb I am to their situation; and how I do not pray for them.
As far as the women travailing after giving birth, I can relate to that. raising children is a lot harder than birthing them. Sometimes I want to rip my hair out, or other times I just want to give up.
Having so many different types of children really shows many different sides of me, some of them I would rather not see. I can really relate to Father Lehi, when he said, "And they [Adam and Eve] would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin." I love my children and am thankful for each of them, but they truly have opened me up to the experience of loosing my supposed innocence, and at times I really experience misery and sin.
I apologize for leading the readership on that I was discouraging them and mocking them in praying for the return of the servants. That was not my intent.
In retrospect, I see that I was just asking for help to get to where the rest of you are in faithfully praying. I was expressing a stumbling stone in my progress in praying manfully, and with real intent. I do realize now that only I can assume responsibility for my prayers, and that what I had written might have landed like a wet heavy blanket over the whole sacred event.
I also see that I was coveting the experience that those of you have in faithfully praying, and receiving answers to your prayers. I was feeling on the outside, angry, and not as good as the rest of you. Ultimately I see that I was putting on all of you what should pass between Heavenly Father and myself.
So once again, please forgive me viewing all of you as superficial, as people who just "go through the motions". Forgive me for projecting on you what really is mine.
Love Monster
(((Love Monster))) praying for you and yours.
As usual I find myself way behind everyone else and commenting after the attention has moved on to other subjects.
I'd like to make comments on the interpretation of Revelation 12 and Isaiah 66 that have been presented in this posting. I think that when the servants come back many things will become clear and we will be unified in the faith. But in the mean time I love trying to understand the scriptures. I love anaylizing the scriptures. I love comparing them and using all the standard works in justifying a thought or doctine. In the end the scriptures are not for my private interpretation either. These are just my thoughts.
I agree with the watcher that the manchild of Revelation 12:2 is speaking of Christ and the 1st watch.
Contrary to the Watcher I believe that Revelation 12 does speaks of the 3rd watch.
Verse 10 says that a loud voice declares:
Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ
I don't see that verse as being a
2nd watch description. It is a statment of fulfillment of prophecy, it is a declaration of the 3rd watch marvelous work.
Verse 12 says that Satan knowing he only has a short time left comes down to rule over the earth with blood and horror, this also is 3rd watch opposition to the truth.
The watcher suggests that Revelation 12 isn't speaking of the 3rd watch because verse 14 describes the woman spending 3 1/2 years in hiding. Based on the autority of Daniel and Jacob which say that as soon as the 3rd watch opens up the stone crushes the image and the Kingdom rolls forth and fills the earth. Why would the Kingdom hide for 3 years if it's suppose to overcome the world!
I believe that when the Saints are hidden up in Nauvoo they are accomplishing some very important items that are essential to the Kingdom filling the earth. The stone rolling forth and cruching the image is only the fall of Babylon not the destruction of the Kingdom of the Devil. The hiding up of the woman in Nauvoo gives the Saints time to bring forth the full company of 144,000 High Priests which is the Nation that is born in a day.
The transition of power from Satan to Christ is a step by step process
which isn't always described in all scriptures.
In fact Isaiah 66 speaks of this very same process.
Verse 6 concerning the voice of Lord from the city and the temple recompencing justice to his enemies is not heralding the return of the servants. It is hearlding the completion of the work of the Gentile Zion and the birthing of the Nation in a day.
Verse 7 tells us that the 3rd watch manchild comes forth before the travail.
Verse 8 tells us that Zion travails and brings forth a Nation in a day.
The Manchild is brought forth and gathers the Gentile saints of the Lamb of God. They flee Babylon, they create a Zion society, they live the law of consecration. They are Zion by very definition and are hid up in Nauvoo while they seal the the 144,000. After that they go forth with unlimited priesthood power which no nation or power can resist.
The sealing of the 144,000 is the work of the Gentile saints of the Lamb of God. The 144,000 is a family and they need to be sealed.
Joseph Smith quotes Paul and Malachi in D&C 128:15. Paul says concerning the fathers—that they without us cannot be made perfect—neither can we without our dead be made perfect.
This will be the 1st temple work in these last days that will be binding and acceptable to the Lord.
(Revelation 7:3 – 4) 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
(Nauvoo Discourses Pg 527) I cannot reveal the fulness of these things until the Temple is completed. The necessity of the Temple is that the servants of God may be sealed in their foreheads.
I love this blog and the way the Watcher conducts it encouraging us all to study and take the iron rod as the standard of truth and not our own interpretation. It took me over 2 hours to present my thoughts in a concise manner and I doubt that it's very clear even now.
Malachi, I appreciate your insights.
I was wondering what this phrase meant the other day. To "hurt not earth, sea and trees...." Seems like an odd thing. I am not sure I understand it. Unless it means to "go green." LOL
(Revelation 7:3) 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
I've also been fascinated with the thought of "being sealed in their foreheads." Especially since "Scratch" has a counterfiet.
Okay, another thing I don't really get. How is Nauvoo the cornerstone of Zion? Is that just figurative? Because my understanding is that the entire American continent will be Zion. I finally get Kirtland/Jerusalem and Jackson Co, MO/New Jerusalem/Center.
Malachi my friend-
I might have known that it would take Rev 12 to finally get you fired up and engaged!
I am going to take your remarks and dissect them in light if scripture and LDS church history on a future blog.
After they have been put through the meat grinder you will be able to respond.
It should be great fun!
Unfortunately it could be a while before I get to it.
I have a few other topics to cover first.
Thanks for sharing your views on these prophetic passages!
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