The Anarchist is still defending his position. Please read his comments in the comment sections and I will provide yet another response below.
I don’t know if I should congratulate him on his resilience in standing firm on his preconceived notions or if I should rebuke him for being stiff necked and unteachable.
All kidding aside (at least for a few minutes)…. I do want to thank him for his thoughtfulness and persistence in pursuing this important topic. It is these types of exchanges that enable both parties and others to gain greater insight.
You who are following this exchange have probably observed two things;
1- The Anarchist and myself both have way to much time on our hands and probably need to get out of the house every once in a while and maybe even get a life.. maybe take the wife out for a date every once in a while..
2- It really does take a serious amount of time and effort to search the scriptures… and there are many things that need to be taken into consideration.
I can’t wait till the Anarchist and I debate whether or not Polyandry is really a celestial principle or just passed off as one by those who have contracted a whoring spirit... that is going to be great fun!
For those following the last few posts that may feel a little confused about the core issue and/or for anyone just visiting this site from a random search, let me provide a brief explanation my perception of the root issue and the ongoing debate between the Anarchist and myself.
The Anarchist and I both agree that the time will come when there will be an angry remnant of Jacob who are descendants of the Book of Mormon people who become angry and marshal themselves and vex the Gentiles;
“And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation. (D&C 87: 5)”
Our primary disagreement is regarding the interpretation of the following verses;
“And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off.” 3rd Nephi 21:12
The Anarchist interprets the above verses in 3rd Nephi 21 to be speaking about the exact same event and the exact same people as the prophecy in D&C 87: 5. He thinks the remnant that go forth as a lion among sheep mentioned in the above verses are angry descendants of the Lamanites that marshal themselves.
I freely admit that his interpretation is logical and seems to make sense. It is no doubt going to be the most congruent with what is taught in church lesson manuals and over the pulpit.
However, as I have demonstrated time and time again, the Lord intentionally makes something look one way on the surface and you don’t get the real meaning unless you drill down further.
The Lord no doubt has his own reasons for being so cryptic. I suspect one has to do with enabling prophecy to take place in such a way as to take the masses and those who assume they are Gods people off guard. Hence the reason why God has commanded his elect to search the scriptures
Continuing on…. I am interpreting the above scripture in 3rd Nephi 21 to be speaking about the same topic as the one below which is in the previous chapter, 3rd Nephi 20:15…
(BTW this discourse by Christ in chapter 20 and 21 is a continuation of the one he began back in chapter 16 but he took a break and resumed the above topic in chapter 20 after the people partook of the mystical sacrament and became spiritually unified and enlightened….
You will recall that he mystically provided bread and wine that nobody had brought… and fed them of his own flesh and blood. Now that they were spiritually enlightened and seeing and understanding in unity, he wanted to reveal some things that they could now understand. I would suggest the same is true for us. If we are spiritually enlightened, we will have the faith to believe what is really being said;
“And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people— Then shall YE, [not your posterity that is on the earth in the end times but YE] who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many; and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he goeth through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver” (3rd Nephi 20:15)
I assume you agree, Anarchist, that these two above quoted excerpts in Nephi 20 and 21 are speaking about the exact same thing. I think that you would also agree that these two verses mirror the prophesy in Micah which is one of the reasons this topic becomes so important in the study of prophecy. I suspect that you also agree that the following two verses are also referring to the same topic, same time frame, same people;
“But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this [the people he was currently speaking to] the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance; And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.” 3rd Nephi 21:22
You will notice from the red emphasis that I have inserted in the two sections above, that I am accepting the literal rendering of the statement that Christ makes.
In chapter 20:15 he is actually telling the righteous Nephites that after the wicked Gentiles scatter the remnants of Israel that are living on the earth in the last days, that the righteous Nephites that he is speaking to will then return to the earth and will be used by the Lord to tread down the wicked gentiles.
In chapter 21:22 he is revealing that in the last days, the righteous Gentiles will actually come into the covenant by uniting with the Nephites that Christ is speaking to when they are returned to the earth.
I realize that such a literal interpretation gives people indigestion and seems heretical from the stand point of common sense. God just doesn't bring large groups of people back from the dead does he?
I realize it may not seem possible or logical.
I realize it is more comfortable to assume that when Christ says to his audience “Then shall YE who are a remnant of the house of Israel shall go forth among them…” it seems more comfortable to assume that what Christ meant to say is “Then shall a remnant of your posterity go forth among them…”
One problem with making that assumption is that there are places within Christs discourse to the Nephites where he does make the distinction between those he is speaking to and those of there posterity who come at a later time.
But let me take a short break and address something having to do with understanding prophesy;
In Nephi 2nd Nephi 25 Nephi informs us that the words of Isaiah are difficult for many people to understand;
“Now I, Nephi, do speak somewhat concerning the words which I have written, which have been spoken by the mouth of Isaiah. For behold, Isaiah spake many things which were hard for many of my people to understand; for they know not concerning the manner of prophesying among the Jews.”
As you can see, from the above scripture, it appears that it can be an advantage for someone to understand concerning the “manner” of prophesying of the Jews when trying to understand the prophesies of Isaiah. This is why many people feel that Avraham Gileadi is the foremost LDS scholar on Isaiah and the Book of Mormon, because he is trained in understanding the manner of prophesying of the Jews.
My brother the Anarchist has implied that I think like a “Jew” regarding my interpretation of the Book of Mormon… and he assures me this is a complement.
I certainly have no problem being classed among the Jews.
If it is good enough for Brother Joseph and Sidney to have a little Jew in them then it is certainly good enough for me!
Nevertheless, my patriarchal blessing tells me I am an Ephramite and that is fine with me as well.
After talking about understanding the manner of the Jews, Nephi continues
“I, Nephi, have not taught them many things concerning the manner of the Jews; for their works were works of darkness, and their doings were doings of abominations. Wherefore, I write unto my people, unto all those that shall receive hereafter these things which I write, athat they may know the judgments of God, that they come upon all nations, according to the word which he hath spoken. Wherefore, hearken, O my people, which are of the house of Israel, and give ear unto my words; for because the words of Isaiah are not plain unto you, nevertheless they are plain unto all those that are filled with the aspirit For of bprophecy. But I give unto you a cprophecy, according to the spirit which is in me; wherefore I shall prophesy according to the dplainness which hath been with me from the time that I came out from Jerusalem with my father; for behold, my soul delighteth in eplainness unto my people, that they may learn. Yea, and my soul delighteth in the words of aIsaiah, for I came out from Jerusalem, and mine eyes hath beheld the things of the bJews, and I know that the Jews do cunderstand the things of the prophets, and there is none other people that understand the things which were spoken unto the Jews like unto them, save it be that they are taught after the manner of the things of the Jews. But behold, I, Nephi, have not taught my children after the manner of the Jews; but behold, I, of myself, have dwelt at Jerusalem, wherefore I know concerning the regions round about; and I have made mention unto my children concerning the judgments of God, which ahath come to pass among the Jews, unto my children, according to all that which Isaiah hath spoken, and I do not write them.”
It is interesting that there is none other people that understand the things of the Jews the way those who have been taught in the manner of the things of the Jews and yet, Nephi felt that the works of the Jews were in darkness and he didn’t find it important to teach his people in the manner of the Jews.
He reveals that the thing that really matters in understanding prophesy to be filled with the spirit of prophesy.
The bottom-line in understanding this particular prophesy is to be led by the spirit of prophecy. Obviously the Anarchist and I are both mortal and both see through a glass darkly and the key for each of you readers is to take the holy spirit as your guide in determining which of us is interpreting this particular scripture correctly or, for that matter if we are both wrong.
Since the Anarchist fashions himself to be a prophet and since I only claim to be someone who is watching, it may appear that the Anarchist has the upper hand in discerning the scriptures… but I hope you will still humor me in the event that I might get lucky on this interpretation.
I am simply going to ramble some more about my thoughts on this but at the end of the day, each one of us must be led by the spirit, not get caught up in taking sides with some pontification that we choose to follow
Ok, I don’t want to rehash all of the points that I have already brought up in previous posts. If this topic is of interest to you I strongly suggest that you go back to the previous posts and comments and review what has already been stated by both of us
I will briefly mention a few things that I have not previously mentioned and then I am going to summarize why I think the Anarchist and I are not seeing eye to eye on this.
The Anarchist points out that definitions within the Book of Mormon vary depending on context.
I have always accepted the fact that the term “the remnant” or “this, the remnant” or “this the remnant of Jacob” can and does have different meanings in various parts of the scriptures based on context.
The Anarchist makes the following statement;
“For example, while I applaud your perception of the "THIS the remnant of Jacob" phrase, and the possible implications of it, if you read it in this narrow manner throughout the entire text, you can run into problems. For instance, consider 3 Nephi 21: 2.
The Lord says, "And behold, this is the thing which I will give unto you for a sign—for verily I say unto you that when these things which I declare unto you, and which I shall declare unto you hereafter of myself, and by the power of the Holy Ghost which shall be given unto you of the Father, shall be made known unto the Gentiles that they may know concerning this people who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, and concerning THIS my people WHO SHALL BE SCATTERED BY THEM;" (Emphasis all mine.)
Notice that the Lord says that "THIS my people" shall be scattered by the Gentiles. If you follow the strict interpretation you are putting forth, this means that the purified (see 3 Nephi 19: 28-29), turned-from-their-iniquities (see 3 Nephi 20: 26) Nephites of the Savior's American ministry will return to earth and be scattered by the Gentiles. Now, in your posts, you have stated that these same Nephites will be the ones doing the scattering, not the other way around. Maybe you missed this, maybe you didn't. But, with such a strict interpretation, you must concede that this will happen (i.e., that these same faith-filled, righteous Nephites will return and be scattered by the Gentiles) or you must change your interpretation to a looser one.
Like I said, what the prophet had view of is, in my experience, all important, not just the words used to convey that view.”
Anarchist, you are exactly right that the Lord can change to a different topic or a different definition at anytime and this is where the example you show above breaks down. You neglected to use the rule you just pointed out.
When you quoted verse two in your example, you neglected to show that verse one did in fact provide a specific definition of what “This, the remnant” was referring to in that particular context.
Now, lets look at the verse in the example you provided in context of the previous verse and we will see what the contextual definition of “this, the remnant..” is referring to-
“And verily I say unto you, I give unto you a asign, that ye may know the btime when these things shall be about to take place—that I shall gather in, from their long dispersion, my people, O house of Israel, and shall establish again among them my Zion; And behold, this is the thing which I will give unto you for a sign—for verily I say unto you that awhen these things which I declare unto you, and which I shall declare unto you hereafter of myself, and by the power of the Holy Ghost which shall be given unto you of the Father, shall be made known unto the Gentiles that they may know concerning this people who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, and concerning this my people who shall be scattered by them”
As you can see, the Lord qualifies which definition he is using here in 3 Nephi 21: 1-2 . He has specifically identified “this people” and his reiteration of “this, the remnant” as his people who are living in the end times that will be gathered in from their long dispersion.
It is later in the chapter that he provides another more specific definition that refers to the people he is speaking directly to… even the righteous Nephites that will be returned to the earth and will play a part in the final events, but right now in verse 1 & 2 he is speaking about the remnant that will be living on the earth at that time. Hence, there is no inconsistency as you are suggesting.
Now that we have shown that the Lord was not speaking about the current Nephites in verses 1&2, let me drill down a little further on these two verses lest anyone think that these two verses are speaking only of the posterity of the Nephites that he was speaking with.
Do a key word search on “long dispersion” and you will get the following scripture-
“And it shall come to pass that they shall be agathered in from their long dispersion, from the bisles of the sea, and from the four parts of the earth; and the nations of the Gentiles shall be great in the eyes of me, saith God, in ccarrying them forth to the lands of their inheritance.” 2nd Nephi 10:8
Now do a key phrase search on “four parts” and it will take you to D&C 77 and 110;
“Q. What are we to understand by the four aangels, spoken of in the 7th chapter and 1st verse of Revelation?
A. We are to understand that they are four angels sent forth from God, to whom is given power over the four parts of the earth, to save life and to destroy; these are they who have the beverlasting gospel to commit to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people; having power to cshut up the heavens, to seal up unto life, or to cast down to the dregions of darkness.” D&C 77: 8
“After this avision closed, the heavens were again bopened unto us; and cMoses appeared before us, and committed unto us the dkeys of the egathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the fnorth.” D&C 110: 11
From 2nd Nephi 10, D&C 77 and D&C 110 we find that the remnant being spoken of is referring to ALL ISRAEL THAT IS SCATTERED TO THE FOUR PARTS OF THE EARTH IN THE LAST DAYS.
Please understand, I don’t assume that a scripture is categorically speaking about the same thing just because it has the same key word or key phrase in it. But the above scriptures are also contextually congruent with the base reference we are studying as well.
Now let me point something out that you might night have noticed,
Notice in the following verses that even though Christ is giving the land to the righteous Nephites as an inheritance, the actual covenant with them will not be fulfilled until all of scattered Israel is gathered in the end times;
“And then will I gather them in from the four quarters of the earth; and then will I fulfill the covenant which the Father hath made unto all the people of the house of Israel.” 3rd Nephi 16:5
This is in part why it is important to understand why the righteous Nephite Zion must be returned to the earth for the fulfilling of the covenant that God has made with them.
The covenant with the righteous Nephite Zion will not be fulfilled until ALL of the scattered remnants of Israel are gathered in to the New Jerusalem in the last days;
There you have it. The Nephites in 3rd Nephi, as great as they were to repent and consecrate, did not have the covenant fulfilled yet. Their covenant will not be fulfilled until the final gathering when the covenant is fulfilled with ALL Israel.
Notice in 3 Nephi 20:21-22 how God does not ESTABLISH his people for the last time and finally fulfill his covenant, until the New Jerusalem is brought forth and Christ is in the midst of all of gathered Israel. This also pertains to those he was speaking to that had already received the land as an inheritance;
“And it shall come to pass that I will establish my apeople, O house of Israel. And behold, this apeople will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the bcovenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a cNew Jerusalem. And the dpowers of heaven shall be in the midst of this people; yea, even eI will be in the midst of you.” 3rd Nephi 20:21-22
Notice the 1828 Websters definition of ESTABLISHED; Set; fixed firmly; founded; ordained; enacted; ratified; confirmed.
This is critical in understanding the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times.
I will go one step further. I will quote and Apostle Paul and the prophet Joseph Smith to show that even the City of Enoch has not had their covenant fulfilled yet… that is why they are suspended in a terrestrial glory instead of having received their celestial inheritance. This is why they must come down and take part in the final events of the dispensation of the fullness of times as well.
Speaking of the prophets and patriarchs of the Old Testament such as Able, Enoch and Noah, Paul declared that-
“they without us should not be made perfect.” Heb. 11: 40.
What? You mean the covenant has not been fully completed and established even with the people of the city of Enoch?
YES! That is what Paul was saying. And that is why, after the righteous Nephite Zion and the rest of the righteous from the 3 watches will yet be gathered and eventually caught up to meet the city of Zion and the two groups will unitedly descend with the Savior to fulfill the covenant.
Joseph Smith confirms that statement by Paul;
“For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also; for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the ffulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time. And not only this, but those things which never have been revealed from the gfoundation of the world, but have been kept hid from the wise and prudent, shall be revealed unto hbabes and sucklings in this, the dispensation of the fulness of times.” D& C 128
The following excerpt from modern revelation confirms that the city of Enoch that was separated from the earth is still waiting for the fulfillment of the promise that they received, that the covenant would be fulfilled when the day of righteousness comes;
“Who were aseparated from the earth, and were received unto myself—a bcity reserved until a cday of righteousness shall come—a day which was sought for by all holy men, and they found it not because of wickedness and abominations; And confessed they were astrangers and pilgrims on the earth; But obtained a apromise that they should find it and see it in their flesh.”
This is what the parable of the redemption of Zion speaks to in section 101 when the strength of his house are led by the Servant of the Lord to pull down the tower. The term “strength” has nothing to do with angry Indians or Mexicans, it refers to priesthood power. It is not talking about a people who marshal themselves because they are angry, it is talking about a righteous people who are marshaled by the Servants of God.
I don’t think it is necessary to belabor this topic any longer. Those who are interested have sufficient material from myself and the Anarchist to provide some good food for thought in assisting your searching of the scriptures… as mentioned before, at the end of the day, you must be led by the Holy Spirit and be able to see the things of God with your spiritual eyes... frankly, this tenet has nothing to do with our personal salvation.. it is just fun to try to understand it.
Let me share one last observation. There are scriptorians that seem to focus 90% of their articles based on the Book of Mormon because their knowledge is based 90% on the Book of Mormon. I would suggest that until one is as well read in the Old and New Testaments and Modern Revelation, one will not be able to adequately connect all of the dots and have more of a composite, holistic view of the scriptures.
Just as the Book of Mormon is helpful in understanding the other standard works, the other standard works are extremely helpful in understanding the Book of Mormon.
In closing, just a personal note to you Anarchist, when the time comes that you are knocking at the gate hoping to be able to assist those from the Nephite Zion and others from the three watches who have returned to the earth, you may need to profusely apologize to them for not believing that they would return to participate in this glorious event…
..if they still don’t let you in, knock three time really hard with the little wood mallet that is provided and yell out, “This is LDSAnarchist, the Jewish friend of Watcher, the heretic Ephramite, he says let me the hell in!”
At that point the doors may well just swing wide open and you will be embraced and greeted with an holy kiss… have them escort you to my office and we'll share a little fruit of the wine with each other and compare notes. lol
PS I have quit numbering evidences of the third watch... but if I was still doing it, the prophecies of the upcoming fulfillment of the covenant would be another one.