Thursday, March 19, 2009

"I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation.. I will ascend above t

I think it was President Benson who once said something to the effect of;

You cannot protect yourself from the enemy if you don’t know who he is and how he operates

Again, I am paraphrasing and going by memory. I may have that a little wrong. Nevertheless, I think it is true whether he said it or not.

Now, speaking of needing to know who the enemy is in order to protect yourself from them… I am going to challenge a long standing doctrine that has been taught.

It has to do with the war in heaven. What I am about to show you might just scare the bageebies out of you, but it will also help you to understand better just who the enemy is and how close he is to you. Hopefully in understanding this, you will be able to protect yourself with the aid of the Spirit and the grace of God.

Here is a direct quote from the LDS Bible Dictionary regarding the WAR IN HEAVEN;

This term arises out of Rev. 12: 7 and refers to the conflict that took place in the premortal existence among the spirit children of God. The war was primarily over how and in what manner the plan of salvation would be administered to the forthcoming human family upon the earth. The issues involved such things as agency, how to gain salvation, and who should be the Redeemer. The war broke out because one-third of the spirits refused to accept the appointment of Jesus Christ as the Savior. Such a refusal was a rebellion against the Father’s plan of redemption. It was evident that if given agency, some persons would fall short of complete salvation; Lucifer and his followers wanted salvation to come automatically to all who passed through mortality, without regard to individual preference, agency, or voluntary dedication (see Isa. 14: 12-20; Luke 10: 18; Rev. 12: 4-13; D&C 29: 36-38; Moses 4: 1-4). The spirits who thus rebelled and persisted were thrust out of heaven and cast down to the earth without mortal bodies, “and thus came the devil and his angels” (D&C 29: 37; see also Rev. 12: 9; Abr. 3: 24-28).

The warfare is continued in mortality in the conflict between right and wrong; between the gospel and false principles, etc. The same contestants and the same issues are doing battle, and the same salvation is at stake.

Although one-third of the spirits became devils, the remaining two-thirds were not all equally valiant, there being every degree of devotion to Christ and the Father among them. The most diligent were chosen to be rulers in the kingdom (Abr. 3: 22-23). The nature of the conflict, however, is such that there could be no neutrals, then or now (Matt. 12: 30; 1 Ne. 14: 10; Alma 5: 38-40).

Ok, that all seems pretty straight forward and well documented… right? It is a very warm and comforting doctrine right to know that the evil people that followed Satan didnt get to come down here to earth with all of the valiant spirits... right?

It is often taught in the Church that;

We know that all of us on earth chose to support the plan of redemption by virtue of the fact that we are on earth enjoying a mortal body

It is very comforting to know that those evil wicked spirits who rebelled against the Gospel Plan and against Christ as the Savior and against that concept of atonement are not rubbing shoulders with us in the flesh… right?

Sorry, but I don’t buy it…

I don’t think the wicked ruler that had all of the male infants killed when Moses was born or the Pharaoh that Moses dealt with, or Hitler or thousands of other leaders who have ruled with blood and horror on this earth or the droves of people who plunder and kill were supportive of the plan of salvation in the pre-existence.

I just don’t think so!

Let me ask you this. If those who chose to follow Satan in the pre-existence were in fact, mingled among us, during this probationary life, don’t you think we should be aware of it, so that we would be a little more sober and alert in protecting ourselves against those who truly hate Christ and reject the atonement and want to destroy his children?

Wouldn’t we be a little more protective if we thought the third portion of spirits that followed Satan were also going through this probationary experience with us instead of thinking of Satan and his minions as being in the background somewhere in spirit form?

I am not saying that there are not evil seducing spirits that we must contend with in this life.. there certainly are.

However, there may be spirits in flesh and blood that are just as dangerous. It is very helpful to know who and where the enemy is. Yes the war in heaven is being continued on earth just as the church teaches but the literal reality of this war needs to be understood..

All of the evil spirits involved in the War in Heaven that followed Satan had to take upon themselves physical bodies and come down to earth and go through mortal probation with us… the laws of eternity require it.

I am now going to address each of the scriptures provided in the LDS Dictionary to see if in fact they really prove that old Scratch and his followers were not allowed to take on a physical body and come to probation with us.

First lets look at Rev. 12: 7 I am actually going to post the entire chapter for you to read for yourself. Remember that the angel told John that the vision was going to show him things which must shortly come to passit is a vision about the FUTURE… not the past.

As you read this chapter you will see that the war in heaven spoken of in the 12th chapter of Revelation was not the pre-existent war for this particular earth and the generation of spirits that came to it… rather it is a war that takes place during this probation!

Notice that it is when the kingdom of God comes forth upon this earth that Satan is cast down to persecute the woman that brings forth the “man child”.

1 And there appeared a great sign in heaven, in the likeness of things on the earth; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.

2 And the woman being with child, cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And she brought for a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and his throne.

4 And there appeared another sign in heaven; and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman which was delivered, ready to devour her child after it was born.

5 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore years.

6 And there was war in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought against Michael;

7 And the dragon prevailed not against Michael, neither the child, nor the woman which was the church of God, who had been delivered of her pains, and brought forth the kingdom of our God and his Christ.

8 Neither was there place found in heaven for the great dragon, who was cast out; that old serpent called the devil, and also called Satan, which deceiveth the whole world; he was cast out into earth; and his angels were cast out with him.

9 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ;

10 For the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 For they have overcome him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; for they loved not their own lives, but kept the testimony even unto death. Therefore, rejoice O heavens, and ye that dwell in them.

12 And after these things I heard another voice saying, Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, yea, and they who dwell upon the islands of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 For when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 Therefore, to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might flee into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent casteth out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helpeth the woman, and the earth openeth her mouth, and swalloweth up the flood which the dragon casteth out of his mouth.

17 Therefore, the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[Note the changed sequence of verses in the JST.]

Ok. As you can see, that chapter is not speaking about the pre-existence and it says nothing about Satan and his followers not getting to have a body.


Now lets look closely at D&C 29: 36-38

36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the adevil—for, behold, the bdevil was before Adam, for he crebelled against me, saying, Give me thine dhonor, which is my epower; and also a fthird part of the ghosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their hagency;

37 And they were thrust down, and thus came the adevil and his bangels;

38 And, behold, there is a place aprepared for them from the beginning, which place is bhell.

Chronologically speaking, the “third part” of the hosts of heaven appears to turn away from Christ AFTER the Devil tempts Adam. And again, there is nothing that says that those who follow Satan don’t get to come to probation just like the rest of us.

By the way, contrary to popular belief, the term “third part” does not mean 1/3.

In theory, you could have three groups of people with one portion that equals 90% one portion that equals 9% and one portion that equals 1%.

The scriptures don’t reveal what percentage followed Satan.. they only tell us that there appears to have been three groups. The scriptures indicate that perhaps the three groups might have been composed of those who come forth in the first resurrection, those who are redeemed after the space of 1,000 years and finally those who cannot be redeemed.


Moses 4: 1-4

1 And I, the aLord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That bSatan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the cbeginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will dredeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely eI will do it; wherefore fgive me thine honor.

2 But, behold, my Beloved aSon, which was my Beloved and bChosen from the beginning, said unto me—cFather, thy dwill be done, and the eglory be thine forever.

3 Wherefore, because that aSatan brebelled against me, and sought to destroy the cagency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be dcast down;

4 And he became aSatan, yea, even the bdevil, the father of all clies, to ddeceive and to blind men, and to lead them ecaptive at his will, even as many as would not fhearken unto my voice.

The above passages indicate that it was in the pre-existence that Satan requested to be the one sent down however, it does not indicate that it was immediately at that time that he was cast down… in fact, you will notice in verse three that it is not after he presents himself to be the one to go down that he is cast out of heaven, but rather it is after he rebelled that he is cast down. I would suggest that it was at a later time that he rebels.

The story of Job supports that fact that Satan remained in heaven during Old Testament Times.


Luke 10: 18;

“And he said unto them, I beheld aSatan as lightning fall from heaven.”

That comment was made by Christ in the meridian of time when he was instructing the Seventy to go forth on their missions.

There is just as much chance that Christ beheld Satan cast down at that time, in the meridian of time, or even in a vision of a future event as there is that he was looking back into the pre-existence!


Ok, now this is where it really gets interesting.

I am not quite sure why they included this chapter in the dictionary because it does not support the theory that Satan and his followers were not allowed to come to probation and take upon themselves physical bodies;

Isa. 14: 12-20

12 How art thou afallen from bheaven, O cLucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the dnations!

13 For thou hast said in thine aheart, bI will ascend into heaven, I will cexalt my dthrone above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the enorth:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the amost High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to ahell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see athee shall bnarrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in aglory, every one in bhis own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like aan abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to bthe stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be ajoined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the bseed of cevildoers shall never be renowned.

Isaiah 14 is a prophecy about the future! The verses leading up to verse 12 are speaking about the fall of Babylon, the Golden City and how the staff (right to rule) is taken away from Satan and his wicked minions that have been ruling the world for 6,000 years.

According to Isaiah, Satan is cast down in the last days!

It would have been sometime between the meridian of time and the end of probation that Satan is cast down from heaven according to Isaiah… and ... Are you sitting down?

Verse 19 is still speaking directly to Satan! It is Satan that is “cast out of thy grave

“But thou (Satan) art cast out of thy grave like aan abominable branch…”

Read it again very carefully and don’t get distracted by the interim verses.

Why is Satan cast out of the grave if he never came to probation to get a body?

How is he cast out of the grave if he never died a physical death?

Another reference provided in the LDS Dictionary is Alma 5: 38-40).

Behold, I say unto you, that the good ashepherd doth call you; yea, and in his own name he doth call you, which is the name of Christ; and if ye will not bhearken unto the voice of the cgood shepherd, to the dname by which ye are called, behold, ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd.

39 And now if ye are not the asheep of the good shepherd, of what fold are ye? Behold, I say unto you, that the bdevil is your shepherd, and ye are of his fold; and now, who can deny this? Behold, I say unto you, whosoever denieth this is a cliar and a dchild of the devil.

40 For I say unto you that whatsoever is agood cometh from God, and whatsoever is bevil cometh from the devil.

This verse informs us that those who hearken to the voice of the good shepherd in this life are of his fold. He who doesn’t is a child of the devil!

The Children of the Devil did not accept and follow Christ in the pre-existence.

Ah Ha! Now we are starting to get somewhere. Those who know the voice of Christ in this life are his children. They obviously followed him in the pre-existence.

Those who don’t know his voice are the children of the devil. They obviously followed Satan in the pre-existence.

Ok.. those are the scriptures the LDS Dictionary uses to support the theory that the children of hell that followed Scratch did not get to come down here and take on bodies and go through probation with us.

If you read those scriptures closely, then you probably realize that those scriptures may be saying something quite different than what is commonly taught.

The reason I feel this is very important to understand is because we need to be aware that there are those in our midst who hated Christ and the Atonement based Gospel that was chosen by the Father in the pre-existence.

Here are some additional scriptures and teaching of LDS leaders to augment the scriptures provided by the LDS Bible Dictionary.

1- The Lord has told us that both the literal seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent would co-exist on this earth together; “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman , between thy seed and her seed; and he shall bruise they head, and thou shalt bruise thy heel…” (Moses 4:21 gen 3:15)

2- Cain was a son of perdition in the pre-existence because he was one of the ones that chose to follow Satan in the pre-existence; “…thou shalt be called the father of lies; thou shalt be called perdition; for thou was also before the world.” (Moses:5:24)

3- It appears that some of the early leaders had been taught by JS that the seed of Cain provided tabernacles for the pre-existent followers of Satan; “A descendant of Cain was allowed to come through the flood in order that the devil might be properly represented upon the earth” (John Taylor JD 23:336 No I am not a bigot. I do not have an issue with blacks, I am simply quoting Taylor to show that there is some reason to believe that you can trace the seed of Cain coming through the blood.)

4- Jesus told some of the Pharisees that they came from beneath and that their father was the devil; “And said unto them, ye are from beneath; I am from above, ye are of this world; I am not of this world… y are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and above not in truth, because there is no truth in him…” John 8:23)

5- The Book of Mormon teaches that those who bring forth evil works are the children of the devil and that they came from the devil; “And now if ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd, of what fold are ye? Behold, I say unto you, that the devil is your shepherd, and ye are of this fold; and now, who can deny this? Behold I say unto you whosever denieth this is a liar and a child of the Devil.” (alma 5:40-41)

6- The Book of Mormon teaches that after all men have passed through mortality and are brought before the judgment bar, those who are still filthy become the devil and his angels (of this world or the next world?) “And it shall come to pass that when all men shall have passed from this fist death unto life, insomuch as they have become immortal, they must appear before the judgment seat of the Holy one of Israel… they who are righteous shall be righteous still and they who are filthy shall be filthy still wherefore they who are filthy are the devil and his angels.” (2 Nephi 9:15-16)

7- Jesus knew that the war in heaven was taking place here on earth and that both armies are here in the flesh. That is why he said, “think not that I have come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter in law against her mother in law…” Mat 10:34

Now that brings the first part of what I wanted to discuss to an end, namely that the war in heaven is literally being continued right here on earth by the same players. I believe the scriptures clearly prove that Satan and his followers do get physical bodies and they do go through a mortal probation. I believe I have provided adequate scriptural support for this supposition.

Now for the next issue that I want to address. I am openly declaring this part of this post to be speculation on my part.

I believe that one of the reasons, if not the primary reason that Scratch and his followers rejected the Fathers plan to have a Savior and a Gospel predicated on an Atonement is because they could see what would happen to them if the plan of the Father was accepted

Somewhere in my files I have a quote from one of the Nauvoo Discourses wherein Joseph Smith revealed in a sermon that after this earth life and the resurrection we will all ultimately return to the glory from which we were created.

Hence, the children of light that were created from terrestrial and celestial intelligence could see what their outcome would be and they rejoiced!

The children of hell on the other hand, that had been created from outer darkness could see what their final end would be as well. Of course they fought like hell against the plan.

In other words, we all come here with a certain spiritual DNA or potentiality based on what part of the universe God took our unorganized intelligence.

It may seem unfair that God would require the children of outer darkness to go through a probation and then to go through the excruciating pain of having their spirit and tabernacle torn asunder after being resurrected. We simply don’t know all of the details. We do know that there must be opposition in all things (opposing forces) in order for us to be able to have agency and to go through a plan of salvation.

Finally, let me share my theory about how to identify those in this life that seem to have the same doctrinal leanings as those who followed Satan.

We learn two very important things about Satan in the scriptures that carry over to his children.

One is that he did not like the plan of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and was not supportive of Christ. I guess he realized that the atonement would not shield him from the law of justice and that it would not ultimately save him from suffering in outer darkness for eternity… therefore he fought against it and wants to do everything in his power to make others miserable like unto his own sorry little personage.

The second thing is that his inner desire and motivation is that he wants to “exalt his own throne above the stars”… he wants to “ascend above the heights of the clouds and be like the most high” but he wants to do it some other way than through the Gospel of Jesus Christ and through the Atonement.

This brings me to the teachings of the new age movement and other anti-Christ movements that you need to be aware of as we enter into the last lap of this probationary experience.

Two things that are very common characteristics of the Children of the Devil that cleave to these seductive teachings is that they;

1- Reject the doctrine of the atonement as taught in the scriptures, often claiming that it is not necessary or that it is impossible for anyone to deny the atonement because it will save everyone. They reject the words of the Savior wherein he warned that those who do not repent and believe on his name must suffer for their own sins despite the suffering that he went through.

2- They usually teach that they are perfect beings just the way they are instead of fallen beings that need to experience a change of heart through the Gospel of Jesus Christ… they tend to exalt themselves and claim the divinity that is within them as being all they need to ascend into the heavens.

I am not saying that everyone who is still stuggling to understand and accept the Atonement is a Child of the Devil. There are many people who, like Saul and Alma the Younger, are still working things out and will be born in due time, I am simply identifying what I believe to be one of the polarizing issues of the Gospel because it is so important to understand.

Beware. The war in heaven is now taking place on earth. There are some very seductive and intoxicating doctrines that teach that the natural man is not an enemy to God, that we don't need an atonement and that we can draw from the divine God within ourselves to ascend into the heavens and be like God without the need to access the Atonement of Christ through faith, repentance, baptism of water, the baptism of fire and the reception of the Holy Ghost as a constant companion..

If the War in Heaven teaches us anything about the events of the 3rd Watch it should be that the God intentionally allows a Son of Perdition to be in a position of authority so that he can lead his own children astray. This should provide context for 2nd Thes.

This is why I have relentlessly stated that it is not enough to follow a prophet, we each must BE a prophet in the sense of taking the Holy Spirit as our Guide to avoid being deceived

How does all of this war in heaven business interrelate with the topic of the 3rd Watch you may be wondering? Well, it is in the 3rd watch that the great war in heave comes to its final fruition in this temporal world. This is where the devil makes his last stand prior to the little season;

6 Therefore, awo be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.
7 For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a amarvelous work among the children of men; a bwork which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto cpeace and dlife eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the ecaptivity of the devil, of which I have spoken. 1 Ne. 14: 7


NEPT said...

I don't have time now to discuss the two verses I have posted below, but I think they are pertinent to the premise that OWIW has proposed here (although I'm not so sure about the chronology of events; the use of D&C 29:36-38 is not entirely convincing IMO) Nevertheless, Jacob has quite a bit to say about all this in 2 Nephi 9, so take a look.

8 O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace! For behold, if the flesh should rise no more our spirits must become subject to that angel who fell from before the presence of the Eternal God, and became the devil, to rise no more.
9 And our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil, to be shut out from the presence of our God, and to remain with the father of lies, in misery, like unto himself; yea, to that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness.

I'll be back soon with tons of questions, so be ready OWIW.

Someone who is watching said...

First of all, there is a progression of the devils just as there is a progression of the Gods.

This is why chronology is so important in determining which devil we are talking about and which state of his progression we are talking about.

The one who began things in the pre-existence and the one in the garden and the one in the end times and the one that begins things in the next creation you are involved in are not necessarily all the same one.

It is true that after Satan and all of the Sons of Perditions are brought forth in the flesh, eventually their bodies and spirits will be separated.

It is light that binds the spirit and the body together and beings who have been functioning on borrowed light, once all the light is removed will come apart.

Notice also how the next generation of Satanhood has power over the previous one that has lost his body;

Moses 5: 23
23 "If thou doest well, thou shalt be accepted. And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door, and Satan desireth to have thee; and except thou shalt hearken unto my commandments, I will deliver thee up, and it shall be unto thee according to his desire. And thou shalt rule over him"

What an interesting scripture full of innuendo. Why does Satan want to have Cain delivered up to him if in fact Cain will rule over Satan?

"to rise no more" could mean several things.... but I'll wait to hear your interpretation.

One more thing though. The following statement in the scripture you are highlighting is an interesting key;

"..our spirits must have become like unto him, and we become devils, angels to a devil..."

How can we become like him if we cannot use the same path he used to get where he is?

Why did he become a devil without going through probation while other go through the probation?


Don't come back with questions.. come back with answers!

Hell Raising Love Monster said...

There are several scriptures that I see missing and can make this conversation more pertinent to those reading it, even giving it more relevance and could even "scare the bageebies out of you" even more.

First scripture.

"for I did liken ALL [does "ALL exclude any?] scriptures unto us, that it might be for our profit and learning." (1 Nephi 19:23)

Does this manner of likening scripture personally also apply to the verses found in Isaiah 14, or 2 Nephi 24? In other words, How would I take the knowledge that I had just as spectacular a fall from heaven as Lucifer? What relevance does it have in my life if I use this form of application in the way I act, carry out business transactions, and relate with people, in considering that I am the morning star which is Venus that fades in the brightness of the light of the Sun (I am also the evening star: the most beautiful star in the heavens)?

Does exalting myself above the other "stars" of Heaven and making myself a substitute for God refer to priestcraft? How do I engage in priestcraft? Do I set myself up for a light unto the world that I might get gain and praise of the world?

Years ago I considered the possibility of followers of Satan's plan, like Cain, slipping past the veil and coming to earth. But then I discovered that it was even more extensive than I had thought. This came to light when I read the first verse of Revelation 13 JST immediately after reading JST chapter 12.

"And I saw another sign, in the likeness of the kingdoms of the earth; a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy." (JST Rev 13:1)

In Chapter 12:4 JST John says,

"And there appeared another sign in heaven; and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads..."

The reference in chapter 12 was a sign that appeared in heaven. In chapter 13 the sign was "in the likeness of the kingdoms of the earth".

I interpreted the seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns as an organization in premortality that had its foundation in the great red dragon. But on earth the same organization was invested in a beast which received its power from the dragon, the same dragon who was the founder in the previous realm.

What personal application does this have for me? Do I belong to any of the numerous kingdoms on the earth. Do I have a Social Security Number? Do I receive any personal benefits from any of these kingdoms in the form of a handout, or check, or education, or even a PO box? Do I participate in oppression and "grind the face of the poor" (See Isaiah 3:15) by participating in a corrupt and debt-based money system that is set up so that those who manage their creatures" well (See Alma 30) do so at the expense of those who do not manage as well? Do I belong to any corporations? Am I a corporation?

If the answer is yes to any of these questions, then I would say that I am part of that organization supposedly "slipped" past the veil and is present to an incredibly massive degree on the earth today. If I do the math and am honest, I would have to say that I too am a child of the devil.

Now that you have heard my confession, are you going to shun me? Perhaps I am the literal Antichrist, and you shouldn't read the rest of this comment.

But if you dare go forward...

In Moses chapter 4 what personal application does the role of Lucifer being cast out to become Satan, the father of lies, have in my personal life?

I could go on and on, and apply each Satanic and Luciferian phrase to myself, and my condition down here in this "consigned-to-be-forever" Telestial existence" (See below) and I would see that I am guilty and implicated.

If it is written to be applied to me personally, that makes it pertinent to me personally, even scary. Real scary. Suddenly the scriptures become quickened in a way that wasn't possible otherwise. I ask myself newly when I speak from a view that I am inadequate and in the way, "Who am I, and, where did I come from?" What possibilities are within me? Is the possibility there to be the most cunning devil. If it is, then also the possibility is there to be the most Christlike of beings?

You make the error of applying the scriptures you quoted in your post to those you consider to be the children of the devil [which I felt you were personally warning me], excluding yourself, and those who agree with you.

This is the same mentality that was in Salem during the witch trials. Those who did apply things personally and felt compassion in a way that they could put themselves in the shoes of those who were were persecuted, jailed, kept from society, and even killed, faced the terrifying threat of being killed themselves. This mentality drove the Spanish inquisition.

This mentality of applying scripture to others shuts down the questioning process. This mentality is Satan inspired because it creates a false utopia at best, and the worst personal nightmare for those who dare to question at worst. It is stifling, and coercive in nature and is great for those lacking courage,who are content to be sheeple, but doesn't work too well for those who "[love] not their own lives, but [keep]the testimony [that is in their hearts]even unto death. (See Rev 12:11 JST)

In your post, nothing was applied personally.

Scary for me.

Second scripture.

"And thus we see that ALL mankind were fallen, and they were in the grasp of justice; yea, the justice of God, WHICH CONSIGNED THEM FOREVER [how long does Section 76 say that people stay in the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms?] to be cut off from his presence." (Alma 14:42)

What I got in reading the blog that you took off of LDS Anarchy was something Brandnu said (no,I am not affiliated with him. I don't know who he is, and I don't know who Birdie is either, and I am not forming a blog with her).

Brandnu quoted the following scripture, and I heard it in a light that I have never considered before.

"Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness."

In the same section it also says,

"For intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence; wisdom receiveth wisdom; truth embraceth truth; virtue loveth virtue; light cleaveth unto light; mercy hath compassion on mercy and claimeth her own; justice continueth its course and claimeth its own; judgment goeth before the face of him who sitteth upon the throne and governeth and executeth all things."

In other words, there are certain things that "goes with" other certain things.

What I am going to say now is what I got out of reading your previous blog, and comments.

A telestial being cannot be quickened by a portion of the Celestial glory while he is in that kingdom. A terrestrial being cannot be quickened by a portion of the Celestial glory as a terrestrial being. Not even for an instant! That quickening can only happen outside of those two kingdoms.

The problem to this whole conversation begins when we read Section 76, and compare it to the phrase in the temple that the kingdom we reside in is the Telestial Kingdom.

Here indeed is a paradox. But as an old Zen Coen states,

"The gates to the temple of truth are guarded by two dragons: paradox and confusion"

And as Joseph Smith said,

"Prove all contraries."

Contraries are paradoxes. And in Chinese Medicine the act of resolving paradox keeps the heart strong and keeps the heart channels to Heaven open to receive the Virtue that continually cascades therefrom.

So this is an important conversation to have, and not sweep under the carpet.

A crucial question: "How do I get out of a condemned place where I am "consigned forever to be cut off from the presence of God"?

Section 76 states that this is impossible.

In my study, I see that it is entirely possible, and will happen to all eventually, as they follow the whisperings of the Holy Spirit. The two lower kingdoms are all illusion, a creation of the mind that is the collective mind that we are all attached to. This collective mind was created at the rebellion of Lucifer. That is my thought. This collective mind gives us what we consider to be life and death down here.

I don't think anyone ever leaves this collective mind at death, but they are recycled back into the dreary kingdom again to give it another try. They experience a reprieve, a rest for a while, which could be confused with heaven, but then they go out again, and again, and are reborn until the bump on what will get them out. They are stuck there until they receive the gift of repentance, and forgiveness, and led out by the whisperings of the Holy Spirit.

This mind gives us what we call good, as well as evil down here. But it is all illusion. So what we consider to be good really isn't, and what we consider bad really isn't either. It only exists in a dream state.

There are many scriptures that describe this dream state.

"And all the nations that fight against Zion, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision; yea, it shall be unto them, even as unto a hungry man which dreameth, and behold he eateth but he awaketh and his soul is empty; or like unto a thirsty man which dreameth, and behold he drinketh but he awaketh and behold he is faint, and his soul hath appetite; yea, even so shall the multitude of all the nations be that fight against Mount Zion." (Second Nephi 27)

O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea, even from the sleep of hell, and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound, which are the chains which bind the children of men, that they are carried away captive down to the eternal gulf of misery and woe. Awake! and arise from the dust, ...Arise from the dust, my sons, and be men, and be determined in one mind and in one heart, united in all things, that ye may not come down into captivity; ...Awake, my sons;
put on the armor of righteousness.
Shake off the chains with which ye are bound, and come forth out of obscurity, and arise from the dust. (See Second Nephi 1)

"And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin. And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me. For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin. And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me. And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now." (See section 84)

I also got something else that I will reconstruct now. Nephi tells us in chapter 26 of his second book that there is a familiar spirit to the Book of Mormon. I never questioned that phrase before, I thought it sounded kind of wierd, kind of like "wizards that peep and mutter". So I never looked into it. Well I worked it out as a chiasm, and I got that the familiar spirit is not familiar to God, but to those who are "low in the dust". In other words, the Book of Mormon was written to those who are spiritually dead, and it matches the language and understanding that the spiritually dead presently use in this Telestial existence they occupy.

The next question is, "what is that language like?"

Well I don't think it is the "tongue of angels" that is spoken of in Second Nephi 31.

It is a language of retribution, and scare tactics, of manipulations that are aimed at waking the one who is sleeping. Getting them to awake out of their dream state.

There are glimpses of "unfamiliar" language in the Book of Mormon, like in Moroni chapter 7, and 8. We don't know how to take those chapters seriously if we truly liken them to ourselves. They just don't fit the paradigms we live in.

One of the comments to the post you deleted promoted a doctrine that sanctification happened gradually, as one understands the mysteries of the kingdom, he becomes all the more sanctified.

I don't agree with this doctrine. I feel that sanctification is not possible inside of this the telestial kingdom. Sanctification is not possible inside of a dream state.

Sanctification is an event where one is catapulted across a gulf of misery and woe. It is called a gulf because it is insurmountable. The gap is too great for a dream person to cross. I

"Yea, we see that whosoever will may lay hold upon the word of God, which is quick and powerful, which shall divide asunder all the cunning and the snares and the wiles of the devil [it destroys the collective mind that holds us captive in our dream state], and lead the man of Christ in a strait and narrow course across that everlasting gulf of misery which is prepared to engulf the wicked—
And land their souls, yea, their immortal souls, at the right hand of God in the kingdom of heaven, to sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and with Jacob, and with all our holy fathers, to go no more out."

Does "to go no more out" imply that there are other kingdoms where a person thinks he is staying, then he keeps leaving and returning back to where he appeared to leave from? He thinks he is leaving when he dies, but only returns again in another illusory body, and keeps repeating this exhausting pattern for millenia over and over again until he is granted the gift of forgiveness, and repentance, and is given the access to cross that incredible gulf and land his soul, yea his immortal soul at the right hand of God TO GO NO MORE OUT?

This article is very long. I hope you read and post it. I was talking to JR, and I got the brilliant idea to change my name from "just peachy" to "Hell raising Love Monster". Call me "Love Monster" for short.

Someone who is watching said...

Love Monster-

For the record and for those that only read replies instead of posts, this is what I said.

"I am not saying that everyone who is still stuggling to understand and accept the Atonement is a Child of the Devil.

There are many people who, like Saul and Alma the Younger, are still working things out and will be born in due time, I am simply identifying what I believe to be one of the polarizing issues of the Gospel because it is so important to understand."

I haven't judged the state of anyones eternal soul, I will leave that to God. furthermore, it is to early for judgment as probation is not over.

I like your new name.

Partly because I feel like I am dealing with two people.

I am never quite sure who is going to show up, Just Peachy, or the Hell Raising Love Monster.

Sometimes you show forth an amazing command of the scriptures and do it in a way that sounds like you believe them.

Other times, you make statements to the effect that you feel more light and truth and Gospel in (forgive me, I keep forgetting the name of the course you took..) and you seem to question the validity of the scriptures.

Despite the pot-shots, you bring up some great scriptures and insights in your diatribe.. as you usually do when you are feeling Just Peachy.

You just reminded me that Section 76 provides some very important clues to the topic. I meant to address it but forgot.

Few people realize that Joseph Smith actually wrote a poem about section 76 to provide further clarification.

I wish I had time right now to find and post it, but in it, he says that Satan was in a "godified state" in the heavens.

NEPT, I submit to you that, that poem, if authentically written by JS provides yet another evidence to support the supposition of the post.

NEPT said...

Just to tease you OWIW, I posted the two verses from 2 Nephi 9 in SUPPORT of, not against, some of your ideas. I'm just a little hazy on the chronology of events, that's all...and a few questions that the whole premise begs. I'll be back soon.

First, I have to go dust of my metaphysics text from college so I can figure out what Hell Raiser is talking about...yeah, I know, but the class fulfilled a general requirement!

Someone who is watching said...

Sorry I misunderstood your remarks NEPT.

The reason I did misunderstand them is because I can see more than one way to interpret those verses and I can see how someone could view it as evidence that Satan does not come and take on a body.

As with many doctrines, you can certainly build a case for either view point.

I wish I understood the chronology.. I find it very confusing.

I have seen some very interesting interpretations of Rev 12 pertaining to the timeline of prophetic events but I just can't feel certain about any of them.

JR said...

I'm back, again by request. Hi!

Noting that there is no conflict between a truth stated in Spanish or in English, the training program that Love Monster referenced in the past (as Just Peachy) is Landmark Education. OWIW or any other may posit that there could be a conflict between truths. Consider that truths do not conflict. Understandings (ideas) may or may not conflict with each other, but the truth is the truth and the truth does not rely on words to be true.

Further, as a point of no particular importance, here is an example of the above possible conflict of ideas while the truth is beyond conflict. Regarding Revelation's "sign that rises from the sea," note that in the first chapter(s) of Genesis, signs explicitly refer to constellations. You can make those passages into a story justifying guilt, self-judgment and self-importance. That is one thing someone could do....

If you spend a lifetime trying to learn Spanish from someone who only knows English, then Spanish may never make sense to you. You may argue with people who were raised speaking Spanish about how the Spanish language works (or that it does not). You may say that Spanish is "spiritually dead." If you say that, those are your words, reflecting your experience and your focus... as your own language.

You may quote scriptures about which apparently are about the "stars of God," but are you competent in the realm of astromytheology? Do you even recognize that there is a "celestial" realm of astromytheology- and whether or not you are reading from an astromytheological communication coded (and possibly transposed) into English by someone who may or may not have actually understood that code?

Yes, all the myths are proverbs, but they all refer to actual patterns that the intended audience would easily recognize- (not requiring extensive speculative exchanges, by the way)... like mustard seeds would have been very familiar to certain people in certain cultures, but I personally do not recall ever having seen one. "Stars of God" and "Heaven" and "celestial" and "exaltation" and "occultation" are not only astronomical references, but common metaphors in teaching stories. I used a story about the seasons to teach about confusion- and I shared that with OWIW and HRLM. Those poetic or metaphorical or mythological proverbs are encoded stories designed to activate, develop, and even program certain "spiritual" potentials in the readers.

With sincere curiosity and interest, I ask you (anyone reading): why are you so interested in certain scriptures? I am sure there is a value for you, but do you know what that value is? If you do not, that is totally fine- I just invite you to distinguish it.

Someone who is watching said...

For those interested in learning more about Landmark Education it is easy to find by googling it on the Internet or I am sure that you can get info from HRLM or JR... and for that matter, JR provides financial services for those who might be interested.

Having said that, I want to let everyone know that the purpose of this blog is to address the general topic of the Marvelous Work and a Wonder that is about to come forth in the context of the three watch doctrine as well as any of the doctrinal posts.

These discussions are to be in the context of LDS scripture.

Those replies that are off topic or appear to be endeavoring to promote other philosophies are better suited for other blogs and chat rooms.

I am honored and intrigued that this site and its paltry readership seems to be deemed a worthwhile place for finding new prospects for other topics and beliefs, but I still prefer to stay focused. Off topic comments will be blocked.

JR, you have indicated to me that you are not very familiar with Mormonism... for this reason the topics on this blog may not be that interesting to you.

In the event that you are interested in discussing this topic from the LDS scriptural perspective, you are certainly welcome to join in.

TruthSeekerToo said...

So, do you think Satan will be born and be the ultimate, final anti-christ? Or possibly he has already been born and died?
The scriptures you present are convincing. Especially the reference to the grave! I can think of no better anti-christ.

I don't really like the "less valiant" theory or the suggestion that an entire race of people are children of the devil.
It especially doesn't make sense to say that all the most valiant are kings and rulers and leaders on this earth. Then to mention Hitler, et al we can clearly see that "valiantness" has little to do with station in mortality.
Or maybe I am missing something.

I have never been comfortable with any talk, etc that made mention of how special and more valiant we are in "these last days." Maybe it just sounds prideful to me or maybe I'm just rebelling against how unfair it sounds.

I think another thing to remember is that the opposite plan was about control. How often do we, as parents, find ourselves trying to control our children? When they make mistakes do we help them partake of the atonement or do we try to make them suffer for their own sins? How easy it is to become seduced by doctrines of the devil.

Someone who is watching said...


You said;

"So, do you think Satan will be born and be the ultimate, final anti-christ? Or possibly he has already been born and died?
The scriptures you present are convincing. Especially the reference to the grave! I can think of no better anti-christ."

I honestly don't know. He could come back literally or he could be possessing someone.. or it could be the next generation of his kind..

You also said;

"I think another thing to remember is that the opposite plan was about control. How often do we, as parents, find ourselves trying to control our children? When they make mistakes do we help them partake of the atonement or do we try to make them suffer for their own sins?"

How very very true.

I must confess that I am guilty of having used fear and control in trying to keep my children on the straight and narrow path from time to time.

Unfortunately it sometimes seems to work better than to just show forth love and example and then show trust in their judgment...