I thought it fitting to respond to him in a new post as some of this information is really quite important in understanding the topic that was addressed in the last post
Yes Anarchist I meant to quote (3 Nephi 21: 22) which states, "be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob"… I was hurrying too much when I wrote the post.
Nevertheless, I find it hard to believe that the definition of the “remnant of Jacob” in verse 23 is all of the sudden different from the one given in verse 22. And I find it difficult that you want me to believe it as well…
In fact, these two verses are a very good example of how the Gentiles have corrupted the scriptures by breaking up the Word of God into verses
Read it without the verse format
“But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this [the people he was currently speaking to] the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance; And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.”
When you read it in a flowing statement as shown above it becomes even more apparent that the people who the righteous gentiles will be assisting are those who Christ visited… those who gained an inheritance upon this land referenced in 3rd Nephi.
Furthermore, verse 22 is verifying that those who repent in the 3rd watch will be numbered among those very Nephites that Christ is speaking too... it is addressing the same topic, namely that the righteous Nephite Zion will be returned to the earth at the time that God sends his servants back to the vineyard... the time when he brings again Zion.
Of course, despite all of the other segments that were shown in my post, the bottom line with regard to identifying who the people are that will go forth among the Gentiles as a lion among sheep is, is very clear if you take the text in 3rd Nephi literally because he is clearly not referring to the posterity of the people he is speaking to, he is speaking to THEM;
“And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people— Then shall YE, [not your posterity that is on the earth in the end times but YE] who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many; and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he goeth through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver”
The verse is addressing the exact same topic as the ones mentioned in chapter 21 that have to do with the remnant that goes forth among the gentiles as a lion among sheep.
One of the reasons the above scripture in 3rd Nephi is so critical to understand from a prophecy point of view is because it sheds light on a very similar text in Micah.
Yes the prophecy in Micah probably has multiple fulfillments as virtually all Old Testament prophecies do however the fulfillment coming up in the 3rd watch is clearly the literal fulfillment.
Notice how Micah reveals that the return of the righteous Nephite Zion and others come forth when the Davidic Servant of the 3rd watch returns with the seven shepherds and the eight principal men from the 2rd watch at the time that foreign armies invade America;
“Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he [the Assyrian] shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Mimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the Lord, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.” (Micah)
The promise of how “his brethren would return” and how this servant would gather the righteous from the 1st, 2nd & 3rd watches is contained in section 101;
“And the lord of the vineyard said unto one of his servants: Go and gather together the residue of my servants, and take all the strength of mine house, which are my warriors, my young men, and they that are of middle age also among all my servants, who are the strength of mine house, save those only whom I have appointed to tarry; And go ye straightway unto the land of my vineyard, and redeem my vineyard; for it is mine; I have bought it with money. Therefore, get ye straightway unto my land; break down the walls of mine enemies; throw down their tower, and scatter their watchmen. And inasmuch as they gather together against you, avenge me of mine enemies, that by and by I may come with the residue of mine house and possess the land. And the servant said unto his lord: When shall these things be? And he said unto his servant: When I will; go ye straightway, and do all things whatsoever I have commanded you; And this shall be my seal and blessing upon you—a faithful and wise steward in the midst of mine house, a ruler in my kingdom.”
Furthermore, that same section provides an unconditional promise to the righteous saints of the 2nd watch that got cast out of Jackson County that they would return to their inheritances and help to build up the waste places of Zion;
“Verily I say unto you, notwithstanding their sins, my bowels are filled with compassion towards them. I will not utterly cast them off; and in the day of wrath I will remember mercy. I have sworn, and the decree hath gone forth by a former commandment which I have given unto you, that I would let fall the sword of mine indignation in behalf of my people; and even as I have said, it shall come to pass.
Mine indignation is soon to be poured out without measure upon all nations; and this will I do when the cup of their iniquity is full. And in that day all who are found upon the watch -tower, or in other words, all mine Israel, shall be saved.
And they that have been scattered shall be gathered. And all they who have mourned shall be comforted. And all they who have given their lives for my name shall be crowned. Therefore, let your hearts be comforted concerning Zion; for all flesh is in mine hands; be still and know that I am God. Zion shall not be moved out of her place, notwithstanding her children are scattered.
They that remain [faithful], and are pure in heart, shall return [in the 3rd watch], and come to their inheritances, they and their children, with songs of everlasting joy, to build up the waste places of Zion—
And all these things that the prophets might be fulfilled. And, behold, there is none other place appointed than that which I have appointed; neither shall there be any other place appointed than that which I have appointed, for the work of the gathering of my saints”
That is an incredible unconditional promise that many of the righteous Saints of the foundation movement that failed to establish Zion will be returned to the earth, just like the righteous Nephites that did establish Zion.
I therefore continue with the following two conclusions;
“the ministry of the Seer and the Spokesman in the 3rd watch is not just taking the word of God to the mortal remnants of Israel which includes the Lamanites, it includes bringing AGAIN Zion. It includes gathering up the strength of his house [from all three watches] to go and tear down the tower of the enemy and then to fight the great battle when the whore gathers against them.”
“Clearly a mortal remnant of the Lamanites will become angry and will marshal themselves to vex the Gentiles and they play an important roll in the civil strive that will take place in the United States as mentioned in the prophecy in section 87 however that prophecy is not referring to the remnant of Jacob that is brought forth from the dust and marshaled by Gods servants to cleanse American and build up the New Jerusalem.”
In fact, you will noticed that the purpose of the prophecy in section 87 is to focus on the topic of REBELLION and the subsequent breakdown of society and the wars that follow and you will notice that the angry lamanites are one of two classes of angry people that marshal themselves;
“And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war. And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.”
A common interpretation of the “slaves” among LDS is that it has to do with the blacks and race wars, etc. I personally think it makes reference to members of the general populous that have awakened to the realization that they have become slaves and are in bondage to the secret combinations that rule in Babylon.
However, either way you chose to interpret verse 4, it is still referring to another group of angry, non-righteous people who are rising up against their “masters” at the same time that the “remnants of the land are vexing the Gentiles.
The “slaves” are lumped in with the “remnants” in this prophecy about rebellion and wars because both have marshaled themselves and are rebelling.
The angry posterity of the Lamanites is not the group that is marshaled by Gods servant going forth in righteous power to tear down the tower of the enemy, reclaim Zion and go forth among the wicked gentiles... it is just a bunch of angry Lamanite remnants that will do their part in destroying the wicked from off the face of the land.
4 comments:
Hey Watching, unfortunately I have been entangled with the Babylonian responsibilities of a new job, but I have been following your enthralling give and take with LDSAnarchy--BTW Anarchy, I was one of the few who read your 3 Nephi 21 post, so I hope that relieves some of your dismay!
I cannot make any contribution to the subject yet, but I did have a tangential question. From what I can gather from your posts Watching, you suggest Micah's seven shepherds are the unidentified six elders from D&C 29 and 84, along with JS, am I correct? And if this is so, who are the eight principle men? Are they the remainder of the Twelve not present at the aforementioned D&C revelations?
NEPT
I do believe the six elders in section 29 and 84 are part of the quorum of seven shepherds mentioned in Micah and other places...
I have not put much thought into the 8 principle men although a strong possibility would be the 8 witnesses of the book of Mormon... see the first pages of the Book of Mormon.
How amazing and a appropriate would that be for the 8 witnesses to come back and bear testimony again... in power.
Watcher, I'm only going to address the verses (3 Nephi 21: 22-23) in which we have differing interpretations.
Again, before I begin, I do find it pleasing to see that you have noticed the "THIS the remnant" part of these prophecies. I think most people would not have caught that nor come to the conclusion you've come to.
I've always considered prophecy and the interpretation of prophecy as kind of a tricky subject. The reason is that often a text can be read in both strict and loose ways. There are textual keys, of course, but sometimes despite those keys, the meaning isn't absolutely clear. Often what is needed is the view that the prophet had in mind when he or she stated it. In other words, what is needed is the spirit of prophecy and revelation in order to accurately interpret many prophecies. Of course, some prophecies are just plain, plain, plain, no prophetic keys or spiritual enlightenment needed, and also all prophecies, when fulfilled, become apparent to all, so I am speaking only of those prophecies which can be read in one of two or more ways (or all ways.)
Because of this, I try to approach all prophecy with caution and make no claim to understand all of it. However, sometimes I can see it very clearly, but this is not due to scriptural knowledge, but because of the spirit of prophecy that rests upon me and which allows me to prophecy the very same thing. So, my method of prophetic interpretation will surely be unacceptable to others, as I try to rely upon my gift to prophesy in conjunction with the scriptures and textual keys in order to understand what the prophet who said it had views of.
Anyway, back to these two verses. As you are well aware of, prophets often stop talking about one thing in mid sentence and start talking about an entirely different thing, only to go back to the original topic much later. This sometimes confuses the heck out of the listeners or readers. So, we have, for example, the Lord speaking of something in 3 Nephi 16 and ending in verse 20 with a quote from Isaiah, then in chapters 17, 18, 19, and 20 we find him going into entirely different subjects (over the span of a full day), then in 3 Nephi 20: 11 we find him going right back into Isaiah and taking up where he left off in 3 Nephi 16: 20, as if he hadn't just put a thousand off-topic words and a full 24-hours in-between.
In the same way, often the Lord will talk about one people, having view of them, and then talk about another people, having view of them, all in the same sentence. That's my first point.
My second point is that not everything is spoken strictly and not everything is spoken loosely. Often phrases are spoken loosely followed by phrases that are spoken strictly. So, sometimes taking everything literally or with a strict interpretation is not the correct way to go.
For example, while I applaud your perception of the "THIS the remnant of Jacob" phrase, and the possible implications of it, if you read it in this narrow manner throughout the entire text, you can run into problems. For instance, consider 3 Nephi 21: 2.
The Lord says, "And behold, this is the thing which I will give unto you for a sign—for verily I say unto you that when these things which I declare unto you, and which I shall declare unto you hereafter of myself, and by the power of the Holy Ghost which shall be given unto you of the Father, shall be made known unto the Gentiles that they may know concerning this people who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, and concerning THIS my people WHO SHALL BE SCATTERED BY THEM;" (Emphasis all mine.)
Notice that the Lord says that "THIS my people" shall be scattered by the Gentiles. If you follow the strict interpretation you are putting forth, this means that the purified (see 3 Nephi 19: 28-29), turned-from-their-iniquities (see 3 Nephi 20: 26) Nephites of the Savior's American ministry will return to earth and be scattered by the Gentiles. Now, in your posts, you have stated that these same Nephites will be the ones doing the scattering, not the other way around. Maybe you missed this, maybe you didn't. But, with such a strict interpretation, you must concede that this will happen (i.e., that these same faith-filled, righteous Nephites will return and be scattered by the Gentiles) or you must change your interpretation to a looser one.
Like I said, what the prophet had view of is, in my experience, all important, not just the words used to convey that view.
Anyway, back to verses 22 and 23. If these verses are written again in another manner, you might be able to see that the Lord was referring to a different group in verse 23.
"But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance; and they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem." (3 Nephi 21: 22-23)
That's how it is written in the scriptures. Now here is how it breaks down. I will use the analogy of a public speaker talking to an audience that is present about other audiences (or groups) that are not present:
"But if they [the Gentile audience or group] will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts [the hearts of the Gentile group], I will establish my church among them [among the Gentile group], and they [the Gentile group] shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob [this present audience or group], unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance [for the inheritance of the converted Gentile group]; and they [the converted Gentile group] shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob [another group not present], and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come [a second group not present], that they [the groups not present who are not converted Gentiles] may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem. "
Now that is what the scripture means. If we put the meaning you think it means into it, here is how it would be worded:
"But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance; and they shall assist [THIS] my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that [YE or YOU or ALL OF YOU, or YOU AND THEY (the latter phrase referring to the present audience and the rest of the house of Israel] may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem."
In other words, if the Lord meant what you think he meant, he would not have stated "they," but instead would have used "you" or "ye" or some variable thereof. The use of the word "they" alone, without any use of "you" or "ye" in this scripture is the textual key that indicates that the Lord is not referring, in verse 23, to the audience that he was addressing (the one that was in his presence at that time).
Regardless of whether you break the sentence into two verses or combine it into one, the meaning is the same, namely that the Lord talks of one group in verse 22 and another group in verse 23. That is my understanding.
Anarchist-
See my next post
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