A misunderstanding

Yes I do! I am trying to work on it. I am a work in progress... but please read the disclaimer on the side panel because this blog really isn't about me.

Let me begin by providing a little context so that everyone understands what is going on it this post.

Someone choosing to remain Anonymous challenged my supposition in the last post regarding the definition of “fruit” in the scripture I was referencing. I responded in a less than humble and diplomatic way which I have been known to do from time to time when Mrs Watcher is not around to edit my replies and posts for “pride and arrogance”.

I did however invite Anonymous to respond with his reasoning for disagreeing with me.

He apparently did respond or at least he thought he had responded with his doctrinal rebuttal.

I never got the reply he sent, either because it was not correctly sent or because I had a “Senior moment” and accidentally deleted it before I left to come down here to Southern Utah on business.

When Anonymous did not see his reply show up, he assumed I had blocked it and took me to task with another reply letting me know what a proud soul I was for wanting to defend my position rather than wanting to sincerely know the truth, etc.

He has since resent his doctrinal response which I DID post in the reply section.

I feel that he brings up some good points and that this provides a great teaching platform so I am also providing his rebuttal in this post as well.

Naturally, I am going to respond to his rebuttal. I am providing his rebuttal in red.

I was really excited to respond to his nasty comments about my character flaws because Mrs Watcher isn’t here to edited my response to him and I am feeling a bit testy right now having been falsely accused and suffering from a wrenched neck, (undoubtedly having to do with the propensity of Israel to be a stiff necked people) however, since his false assumption was a logical one to make, I don’t feel it would be appropriate to post any comments containing his angry accusations… no need to get into a pissing match over a misunderstanding… although I do think his anger towards me is actually triggered by an altogether different doctrinal disagreement that we have, if my intuition serves me correctly…

Although I would like to respond point by point to the rebuttal below, it is getting late and I am not feeling well so my response will be short.

“Glad to know you will post it, if you never received it then none of my comments mattered but you can post them as well if you like...

My definition of "fruit meet" is more traditional then yours, I recognized that although I readily admit that I am not usually a person that embraces the traditional church definitions, it just so happens that in this case I feel the traditional definition is the correct one.

If I was one of those lovers of traditions then I would not have already read ALL of the post on this blog as well as ALL of the posts on "OneWhoisWatching". I am getting the impression that you have assumed just because someone disagrees with you on this point, that they have never looked at the scriptures in the ways that you look at them. Of that they are not "students" of the scriptures. Perhaps I am wrong in that feeling.

I like your blogs and I agree with much that is said. Not all, but much.

"I am guessing you did not take the opportunity to drill down and do a key word search to see why I am suggesting what I am."

In this case I will admit that I did not do the keyword search because I do not feel that your interpretation is correct. Perhaps I will do the keyword search later today (and maybe I will come back with my tail between my legs... I am good at eating my humble pie when necessary, I have had plenty of experience doing so).

"In fact by replacing a specific tangible offering with a vague and ambiguous catch-all definition such as the you are suggesting is what largely enables the Saints in the latter days to discount the critical need to consecrate and obey the law of the Gospel contained in section 42."

I don't disagree with this. We have been watering down the scriptures and the truth for well over 100 years and all it does is take us further away from the Lord. That does not mean that every "different" viewpoint is correct however.

"I am suggesting that the scripture being referenced is indicating that an outward, physical, tangible evidence, in the form of some kind of offering and sacrifice was required in addition to the broken heart, contrite spirit and repentance of sins that was also being offered."

This would seem to fit in accordance with the true definition of tithing, which as you know, requires an initial payment off all excess, then followed by payments of 10% but I still don't buy the fact that that is required for baptism... let me tell you clearly why.

Mormon 8:32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.

So, Moroni specifically condemned churches that say you must pay money to be forgiven of your sins, yet your argument is that a person must commit to consecration to be baptized (forgiven of their sins).

This is wrong in my opinion, regardless of what the keyword search produces.

I do not think that consecration is wrong, I know that it is the way the Lord wants us to live, but just like I feel that the LDS church is wrong in requiring a commitment to tithing before baptism (Mormon 8:32) I feel that your interpretation is wrong due to the same principles. God's Nature may limit the progression of individuals for not living consecration but according to the scriptures it would be horribly wrong to deny a person repentance of sins because they did not pay you money.

This is why I feel that way, it seems clear that the scriptures are against your viewpoint, in this case.


""what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

(He apparently was doing a pretty good job with most of the outer commandments)

The Savior said;

"One thing you lack, Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, [consecrate] and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.""

In this case the rich your man was wanting to inherit eternal life, not to simply repent. Gaining eternal life is a process, baptism is an action. The man did not ask "what must I do to be baptized". In this case you compared apples to oranges.

"It appears you are new to this blog and don't have the foundation necessary to understand where I am coming from. "

This was an assumption, and it was incorrect.

"If you have further interest and willing to pay a price, you may want to read the interpretation of the allegory of the olive tree found in Jacob a few posts back.. but before you do that, you should go to the very first post and read them chronologically until you get back to this one."

Been there, done it, enjoyed most all of it.

"The answer to your question is pretty obvious as you read the history of the church and the modern revelations."

Please elaborate on this in that it was my main concern and you really didn't say much about it. Are you referring to the fact that the early saints fell away because they did not live consecration?

If so I agree with you, that is the main reason why they fell away (and not completing the temple as you state in precious posts... which I have read=)).”

Dear Anonymous-

The bottom-line of your argument with my post from the reply I am not posting is that it is not necessary to first agree to enter into consecration before being baptized and receiving a remission of your sins, in your opinion, according to your interpretation of the scriptures.

Additionally, you said in the comments above;

“I do not think that consecration is wrong, I know that it is the way the Lord wants us to live, but just like I feel that the LDS church is wrong in requiring a commitment to tithing before baptism (Mormon 8:32) I feel that your interpretation is wrong due to the same principles. God's Nature may limit the progression of individuals for not living consecration but according to the scriptures it would be horribly wrong to deny a person repentance of sins because they did not pay you money.”

The short version of my response to your disagreement with me is simply this;

We do not ENTER into consecration and the law of the Gospel when we decide to present our possessions at the feet of the Bishop and/or Apostles or whoever the Lords steward is.

It has nothing to do with which dispensation we are living in or when and/or if the opportunity to receive our inheritance takes place.

It has nothing to do with whether we live during a time when a united order is established or a Zion society is on the earth.

You consecrate everything to the Lord when you repent and are baptized.

Period.

End of story.

The actual entering into the temporal system of a Zion society during this earth life is not the issue.

It is not the beginning point. It is simply the opportunity to make good on living the law of the Gospel (Law of Zion, Celestial law) that you agreed live when you were baptized.

When the scriptures state that we need to repent and be baptized, they may as well say we need to repent and consecrate everything to God because it means the exact same thing.

When you go down into the waters of baptism symbolizing death of the carnal man and you come up out of the waters symbolizing the resurrection into a new life wherein you have been assimilated into Christ, having given up your old name and identity and ego and possessions, you are in the act of consecrating all that you have and all that you are to God.

After that ordinance he may take any and all temporal possessions that you have at any time and in any manner he so chooses according to your own free will and choice because of the new and everlasting covenant that you entered into.

The fact that you would want to be so protective of “your money” after being baptized indicates that you don’t consider the baptismal covenant to be a total consecration of all you are and all you have unto God.

This is where you and I disagree…

Our disagreement really has more to do with the true definition of baptism than with the technicalities of how, when and where God decides to recall all of the temporal poker chips.

Having said that, I now invite you to provide a rebuttal to the other doctrinal issue that I think you have had for some time now. I will not bring it up, but I invite you to... I could be wrong about this hunch... it is just a feeling that I have... because I have been watching.

"the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there"

Well it has been a wild ride the last 2 ½ months… My first blog entry was on Sept 23. I promised to provide at least 30 evidences that the Marvelous Work and a Wonder did not begin in 1830 when the Church was restored to the earth.

My basic premise is that it is to be a future event.. one that begins four generation later.. probably sometime between April of 2008 and April of 2009.

One of the foundational scriptures upon which the premise and time-line is built is taken from the 12^th Chapter of Luke in the Joseph Smith of the Bible:

"For, behold, he cometh in the first watch of the night, and he shall also come in the second watch, and he shall come in the third watch"

We are children of the 3^rd Watch!

I am now approaching my 50^th evidence and I am just getting warmed up. I am sure I can provide at least 100 if there is enough time left and if the internet stays up and if I feel impressed to do so.

You might find it interesting to know how this topic was chosen and how this blog got started..

In mid August of this year I visited an LDS last days prophecy chat board and one of the participants asked if anyone in the chat group believed that the Marvelous Work was a future event instead of one that had begun in 1830 at the time of the restoration of the Church. They wanted to know any scriptural evidences that might substantiate such a premise.

I responded to his post and stated that I believed that the Marvelous Work was indeed a future event and that I was very passionate about that topic and that I could provide a myriad of scriptural evidences to substantiate such a belief.

I then declined to provide any of the evidences he was requesting because I knew the moderator of that particular group would sensor me for doing so. This is because the “guidelines” of the group discussion for that chat board do not allow any discussion that would indicate that a “Servant Figure” needed to come and redeem the Church and usher in a new restoration:

“General guidelines for group discussion:
Discussions along the … belief that…. we are now waiting for the.. Servant figure to come and redeem the church are not welcome here. This group doesn’t embrace the idea of the church being… in need of a restoration.”

I guess I was hoping that the moderator would read my response and feel embarrassed for himself and allow me to proceed with the scriptural references that I was passionately willing to offer… to my great disappointment, the moderator responded by thanking me for keeping my thoughts to myself.

After I left the chat board, I was pondering how sad it was that the moderator of the group was so scared to allow someone with a differing view to be heard. After all, if he was an authority on prophecy and the end times, and if he was so sure that the Marvelous Work had begun 178 years ago, he could easily follow my post with his own post showing me the error of my ways.

Finally it occurred to me that perhaps this would be an excellent topic for a blog and the rest is history. I have really enjoyed this exercise even though I am really busy with work and don’t have very much time to put much thought into this..

I realize that my blog is not well known and that most people have little interest in the topic, but my motivation is not based on how many people read it. If this blog encourages one person to begin searching the scriptures in a deeper, more meaningful way, it is worth it to me. Besides, this blog provides me with an ongoing opportunity to put my testimony in writing.

We just completed the ten day period called the “Days of Awe”. It began with the Jewish New Year called Rosh Hashanah which began with the New Moon. Very close to that time we had a major meltdown of the stock market. Is that a coincidence? It might be... after all, we have had several bad days in the stock market.... but I don’t think it is a coincidence.

The tens days of awe eventually ended on Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement which began on Wednesday and ended yesterday. Quite fittingly, yesterday produced yet another melt down of the stock markets around the world.

Naturally, many people are speculating that today, October 10^th will produce another free fall of the stock market and increase the momentum of the silent bank run that has been happening for the last several weeks…. Will today be the Black Friday that people are speculating about?

It doesn’t really matter… as we watch and ponder the events and the signs of the times the only thing that really matters is if we have oil in our lamps.

Have you been born again?

I am noticing more and more fear in the hearts of people as I look around me on the news and as I chat with people while I am working.. greater and greater fear.

We have entered a new stage in the history of the earth... a tipping point of sorts and FEAR seems to be the order of the day.

Are your thoughts about today and the future filled with fear or faith?

Are you filled with the love of Christ? It is interesting that the scriptures list love of the solution for casting out fear;

“I fear not what man can do; for perfect love casteth out all fear.” Moroni 8:16

If you are experiencing fear may I suggest that you ask yourself a few questions.

Is you testimony based on the church being true or is it based on the gospel being true?

Do you feel you will avoid being deceived by following the brethren or by coming unto Christ?

Have you entered into the straight and and narrow path through the proper gate?

Let me suggest that if you are feeling fearful, perhaps you have not entered through the proper gate.

Let me also suggest that entering into the waters of Baptism and being baptized by a person having the proper priesthood authority, does NOT constitute entering in through the gate if the Lord God does not baptize you with fire. It leads you to the gate, but it does not get you through the gate.

In a recent post I quoted an interesting passage of scripture that reveals a very important mystery concerning the keeper of the GATE that gets you into the straight and narrow way:

“O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name.” (2 Ne 9:41)

As you can see, it is only the Lord God that can admit you into the gate. God employs authorized servants in administering the outer ordinance of the baptism of water but they cannot administer the baptism of fire. Only the Lord God can administer the baptism of fire.

Only after you have been cleansed by the baptism of fire can the Holy Ghost become a constant companion within you.

Please go to http://scriptures.lds.org/ and do a key word search using the terms “fire” AND “holy ghost” and search the scriptures that it brings up. You will find that there are three baptisms or three parts of baptism contained within the one true baptism.. and you haven’t made it through the gate unless you get the baptism of fire that no human being can give you.

“Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tougue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me....

Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.” ( 2^nd Nephi 31)

Hence we see that there are three baptisms that comprise the full and true baptism… A baptism of water, a baptism of fire and a baptism of the Holy Ghost.

“And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, 3^rd Nephi 9:20

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost. (3^rd Nephi 11:35)

And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words unto Nephi, and to those who had been called, (now the number of them who had been called, and received power and authority to baptize, was twelve) and behold, he stretched forth his hand unto the multitude, and cried unto them, saying: Blessed are ye if ye shall give heed unto the words of these twelve whom I have chosen from among you to minister unto you, and to be your servants; and unto them I have given power that they may baptize you with water; and after that ye are baptized with water, behold, I will baptize you with fire and with the Holy Ghost; therefore blessed are ye if ye shall believe in me and be baptized, after that ye have seen me and know that I am.

And again, more blessed are they who shall believe in your words because that ye shall testify that ye have seen me, and that ye know that I am. Yea, blessed are they who shall believe in your words, and come down into the depths of humility and be baptized, for they shall be visited with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and shall receive a remission of their sins.” 3^rd Nephi 12

“And ye will also know that ye are a remnant of the seed of Jacob; therefore ye are numbered among the people of the first covenant; and if it so be that ye believe in Christ, and are baptized, first with water, then with fire and with the Holy Ghost, following the example of our Savior, according to that which he hath commanded us, it shall be well with you in the day of judgment. Amen.” Mormon 7:10

A great symbolism pertaining to the three part baptism is mentioned in the Pearl of Great Price:

“Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time.

Therefore I give unto you a commandment, to teach these things freely unto your children, saying:

That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood [of Christ] ye are sanctified;

Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.” Moses 6:59-60

The New Testament also speaks of the water, blood and spirit in conjunction with the three parts of baptism:

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son." John 5 :3-9

Do you see a reoccurring pattern in the above scriptures? Is not the baptism of water simply the starting point that leads you to the gate? Is there any human priesthood authority that can cleanse you by fire and admit you through the gate into the straight and narrow way?

Moses 6 tells us that Baptism is patterned after our birth into this world via Water, Blood and Spirit?

John 5 and numerous other scriptures tell us there not three parts of the full and true baptism having to do with the baptism of Water, the baptism of Fire and the baptism of the Holy Ghost?

• You are submerged in Water through an authorized servant demonstrating your humility, repentance and obedience to keep the commandment
  
  

• The corrupted blood that you inherited from the fall of Adam is sanctified by the perfect and eternal Blood of Christ through the Baptism of fire.
  
  

• Your Spirit in justified by the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost.

The Baptism of Water by authorized priesthood authority is a very important step that leads us to the gate but it does not get us through the gate to the straight and narrow path... it is the baptism of fire that gets us through the gate... the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there!