Would you be surprised to find out that the prophecy about the ancient record mentioned in Isaiah 29 and 2nd Nephi 27 is not referring to the record Joseph Smith translated known to day as the Book of Mormon that came forth from the unsealed portion of the plates back in the 1800's?
In this post I want to discuss why I believe-
- 2nd Nephi 27 is speaking about the 3rd watch and not the 2nd watch and why verse 9 is speaking about the Seer and the Spokesman
- The recent activity in volcanoes in foreign lands may be an indicator that the Servants are about to return very soon with additional records that will be published.
- The coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the additional content contained in the sealed portion represents a THREE PART event which takes place during THREE SEPARATE AND DISTINCT PERIODS OF TIME. The first part of the event took place during the 2nd watch when the unsealed portion came forth. The second part will take place at the beginning of the 3rd watch with the coming forth of the "unsealed words" contained in the sealed portion of the book. The last and final part of the event takes place towards the later part of the 3rd watch when the "sealed words" contained in the sealed portion come forth. That portion of the sealed book contains a vision of the events from the beginning of the earth to the ending thereof.
One day while pondering about the recent volcano activity, the following scripture came into my mind.
"Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be heard of fires, and tempests, and vapors of smoke in foreign lands"
It is found in Mormon 8.
Notice how the 8th Chapter of Moroni seems to equate these volcanic events with the coming forth of the words from the sealed book during the Marvleous Work.
Interpretations in brackets (and sometimes not in brackets) are provided by yours truly-
Search the prophecies of Isaiah. Behold, I cannot write them. Yea, behold I say unto you, that those saints who have gone before me, who have possessed this land, shall cry, yea, even from the dust will they cry unto the Lord; and as the Lord liveth he will remember the covenant which he hath made with them. (When the Lord visited the Nephites in 3rd Nephi, and other Nephite prophets he promised them that he would remember his covenant with them and the entire house of Israel in the last days. Contrary to popular belief, he did not complete his covenant with them at that time… the fulfilling of the covenant was to be a future event during the marvelous work… See . 3 Ne. 16: 5, 11-12, 3 Ne. 20: 12, 19, 22, 25-27, 29, 460
And he knoweth their prayers, that they were in behalf of their brethren. And he knoweth their faith, for in his name could they remove mountains; and in his name could they cause the earth to shake; and by the power of his word did they cause prisons to tumble to the earth; yea, even the fiery furnace could not harm them, neither wild beasts nor poisonous serpents, because of the power of his word.
And behold, their prayers were also in behalf of him that the Lord should suffer to bring these things forth.
From the above verse we find that the ancient Nephites have been praying from the dust for Joseph Smith to return because they understand that he holds the keys to begin the Marvelous Work in the 3rd watch and to gather in and restore the covenant with the Nephites and all of Israel. see D&C 14, 35:25, 39:11, 86:11, 90:6-10, 103:16-17
And no one need say they shall not come, for they surely shall, for the Lord hath spoken it; for out of the earth shall they come, by the hand of the Lord, and none can stay it; and it shall come in a day when it shall be said that miracles are done away; and it shall come even as if one should speak from the dead. [ this prophecy has a dual fulfillment, Moroni was speaking from the dead in the 2nd watch AND Joseph Smith will indeed verily return and will speak from the dead in the 3rd watch]
And it shall come in a day when the blood of saints shall cry unto the Lord, because of secret combinations and the works of darkness. [He is speaking about a prolonged period of time, to the Saints of the 2nd watch leading up to the Saints of the 3rd watch prophesying that they will have secret combinations and works of darkness among themselves within the Church]
Yea, it shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches. [again, the time period spoken of appears to covers four generations of time, from the restoration of the church until the Marvelous Work begins. It began back in Kirtland and Nauvoo. It was then that the church became defiled not now. The church has been defiled for over 160 years!]
Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be heard of fires, and tempests, and vapors of smoke in foreign lands;
[This is a great key. We know that the four generation time period during which the book begins to come forth began back in Kirtland and Nauvoo when the church was restored and then became defiled, but when do the words of the sealed portion finally begin to come forth?
It appears as if it is four generations later, when fires, tempests and vapors of smoke are heard of in Foreign lands!!!!!
And there shall also be heard of wars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places.
It seems like there have been wars and rumors of wars for a prolonged period of time, which, of by themselves do not constitute a significant sign of the times.
However, wars and rumors of wars lining up at the same time as an increase in large earthquakes along with great oil spills and pollutions along with the activity of volcanoes that are billowing enough vapors to temporarily cancel thousands of flights might just be a very unusual and significant correlation of events which is alluded to in prophecy!
Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity.
Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.
O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.
Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things [wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, pollutions, volcanoes and ancient records] shall come forth among you.
Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.
And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?
Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?
Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?
Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.
Moroni 8 seems to be speaking to all five generations of Saints, from those living during the generation of time that the time the church was restored and the fulness was rejected, to those living in this generation, four generations later. Yet the time that the book comes forth is identified by very specific signs that are all present NOW.
It was the amazing information contained in Mormon 8 that led me to another passage of scripture that seems much more focused on our current time and the beginning of the Marvelous Work.
If we do a key word search of "tempest" and "fire" to find related prophesies pertaining to the storyline contained within Mormon 8, we are led to the The Book of Mormon version of Isaiah 29 which has been misinterpreted by some latter day saints. Many believe it is prophesying about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon back in 1829 because of the dual fulfillment and parallels having to do with the foundation work back when the foundation of the Marvelous Work was being laid.
Again, many have assumed that much or all of this chapter is referring to the early period of the LDS restoration movement in the 1830's when the foundation of the Marvelous Work was being laid.
However, the first three verses of this chapter reveal that it is taking place AFTER the 2nd watch, in the beginning of the 3rd watch!
Furthermore, the entire chapter is speaking categorically about the contents within the SEALED BOOK, it never mentions the unsealed portion of the book!
A strict literal chronological rendering of this chapter provides the following profile of events in light of modern revelation. Some parts of this profile provided by modern revelation (according to my interpretation of it) are put in brackets.
I invite you to re-read 2nd Nephi 27 while reviewing the following interpretation and see if you don't agree that this chapter is almost exclusively speaking about the Marvelous Work in the 3rd Watch-
1- In the last days of the Gentiles, all nations of the Gentiles and Jews will be drunken with iniquity and abominations (verse 1)
2- They will be visited by the Lord [including the return of his servants] at a time when earthquakes, storms, tempest and the flame of devouring fire are taking place, as signs of his return [as he returns for the third time in secret as a thief in the night, before his final coming in glory] (verse 2)
3- After his servants return and establish the kingdom of God on earth (Zion)] A multitude of Nations will fight against Zion and distress her, but to no avail!
4- All of the first generation Saints who lived at the time of the foundation movement and those that followed afterwards during the following four generations that have rejected the prophets [Seer & Spokesman] by closing their eyes to the truths that were revealed through them shall stay themselves and wonder and stagger in wonderment and confusion. Our deep sleep of apostasy was put upon us by the Lord because of our rejection of the truth. (verses 4-5)
5- AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS [in other words, at a future time, AFTER the servants return and Zion is established], the Lord will bring forth the words of a book which IS sealed. He doesn't unseal the book and bring forth the words, he brings forth some of the words of the book while the book is sealed!
6-This enables people to view some of the content within the sealed book without being able to see the inside of the book itself. The Saints of the 3rd watch have to exercise faith and be tested just as the Saints of the 2nd watch were tested! This is why it is so important to treasure up the word of God and take the Holy Spirit as your guide because you will be required to discern if the words are true! The THINGS which are in the book shall be kept from those who are unbelieving and wicked. It is possible that false books will be coming forth by false prophets at this time to make the the great test even more of a challenge. (6-8)
7- But the Book shall be delivered to a man [the Seer] and he shall deliver some of the words to another man [the Spokesman]. Take a close look at verse 9!
I believe this incredible passage is referring to the seer and the Spokesman and the synergistic relationship between them and the roles between them when the marvelous Work and the Wonder begins!
The Seer brings the words forth, but he Spokesman declares them!
Documentation for the interpretation of the above passage is provided in both the Book of Mormon AND modern revelation;
18 And the Lord said unto me also: I will raise up unto the fruit of thy loins; and I will make for him a spokesman. And I, behold, I will give unto him that he shall write the writing of the fruit of thy loins, unto the fruit of thy loins; and the spokesman of thy loins shall DECLARE it. 2nd Nephi 3:17-18
Realizing that the Spokesman is responsible to DECLARE the words from the sealed book, look again at the Book of Mormon clarification of Isaiah 52- (3 nephi 21)
"
8 And when that day shall come, it shall come to pass that kings shall shut their mouths; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall DECLARE it unto them.
10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.
Jeremiah notes that it is at the time of the fall of Babylon that the word is DECLARED
1 The word that the Lord spake against Babylon and against the land of the Chaldeans by Jeremiah the prophet.
2 DECLARE ye among the nations, and publish, and set up a standard; publish, and conceal not: say, Babylon is taken, Bel is confounded, Merodach is broken in pieces; her idols are confounded, her images are broken in pieces.
3 For out of the north there cometh up a nation against her, which shall make her land desolate, and none shall dwell therein: they shall remove, they shall depart, both man and beast. Jeremiah 50
6 Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the Lord's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompense.
7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the Lord's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.
8 Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed.
9 We would have healed Babylon, but she is not healed: forsake her, and let us go every one into his own country: for her judgment reacheth unto heaven, and is lifted up even to the skies.
10 The Lord hath brought forth our righteousness: come, and let us DECLARE in Zion the work of the Lord our God.
11 Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the Lord hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the Lord, the vengeance of his temple.
12 Set up the standard upon the walls of Babylon, make the watch strong, set up the watchmen, prepare the ambushes: for the Lord hath both devised and done that which he spake against the inhabitants of Babylon.
Modern revelation agrees with ancient prophecy, Sidney and his associates RECEIVE the word from Joseph.
The word will GO FORTH to the ends of the earth from Sidney and his associates.
6 And again, verily I say unto thy brethren, Sidney Rigdon and Frederick G. Williams, their sins are forgiven them also, and they are accounted as equal with thee in holding the keys of this last kingdom;
7 As also through your administration the keys of the school of the prophets, which I have commanded to be organized;
8 That thereby they may be perfected in their ministry for the salvation of Zion, and of the nations of Israel, and of the Gentiles, as many as will believe;
9 That through your administration they may receive the word, and through their administration the word may go forth unto the ends of the earth, unto the Gentiles first, and then, behold, and lo, they shall turn unto the Jews.
10 And then cometh the day when the arm of the Lord shall be arevealed in power in convincing the nations, the heathen nations, the house of Joseph, of the gospel of their salvation.
11 For it shall come to pass in that day, that every man shall hear the fulness of the gospel in his own tongue, and in his own language, through those who are ordained unto this power, by the administration of the Comforter, shed forth upon them for the revelation of Jesus Christ. ( D&C 90:6-10)
Sidney is to "proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord and the gospel of Salvation (90:93)
Sidney is to be the SPOKESMAN and to be mighty in expounding all scripture.
"But a commandment I give unto you, that ye shall declare whatsoever thing ye declare in my name, in solemnity of heart, in the spirit of meekness, in all things.
8 And I give unto you this promise, that inasmuch as ye do this the Holy Ghost shall be shed forth in bearing record unto all things whatsoever ye shall say.
9 And it is expedient in me that you, my servant Sidney, should be a spokesman unto this people; yea, verily, I will ordain you unto this calling, even to be a spokesman unto my servant Joseph.
11 And I will give unto thee power to be mighty in expounding all scriptures, that thou mayest be a spokesman unto him, and he shall be a revelator unto thee, that thou mayest know the certainty of all things pertaining to the things of my kingdom on the earth. (section 100)
9- The Seer shall not deliver the SEALED BOOK or the SEALED WORDS within the book. However some of the words within the sealed book will not be sealed and will be delivered during the earlier part of the Marvelous Work, as a test for the wicked and as a testimony for the righteous. There are certain WORDS within the sealed book that are SEALED, having to do with the revelation of what happens from the beginning to the end of the earth. In other words, some times these passages speak of the BOOK being SEALED, sometimes they speak of certain WORDS within the book being SEALED! ( Verse 10)
10- At a future time, after the great test, after probation is over and it is too late to repent, all of the words in the sealed book will be read from the housetops by the power of Christ, revealing all of the secret acts of men from the beginning of the world to the end thereof. (verse 11)
11- At the time when the Sealed Book shall be delivered to the Seer, the physical book shall be hidden from the eyes of the world except for THREE WITNESSES! We can only speculate who these three witnesses will be. It could be that Oliver, David and Martin will return and complete their missions as the original three witnesses of the Book of Mormon. It could be that three of the first three High Priests of the dispensation who preside over the Marvelous Work could be the witnesses as well. Another possibility is that it could be that three mortals from our current generation may be called to be witnesses. Wow, what an honor that would be to be a witness of the record! (verse12) One last possibility is that the three witnesses of the 3rd watch are the three Nephites (see 3 Nephi 28) (my speculation is that the three witnesses from the 2nd watch will return and fulfill their callings just as Joseph and the other first elders will.)
12- It is possible that a few others may have the privilege of viewing the sealed book but if so, they apparently don't have the same calling as the three witnesses who are required to testify to the world. (verse 13)
13- It is under these circumstances that the Lord will PROCEED (begin) the process of bringing forth some of the words of the sealed Book! And wo to those who reject that portion of words that are brought forth during the time of wickedness at the beginning of the Marvelous Work in the 3rd watch! (verse 14)
14- Yes, there is going to be a repeat of an event that happened during the 2nd watch which was only a shadow fulfillment of this prophecy! The words will be taken by the Spokesman or one of the witnesses to a "learned" man and he will be asked to read them, but the learned man will only be willing to read them if the book can be produced! It appears that this is because he wants the glory of being able to look at the reformed Egyptian characters or at the physical book and render a professional opinion based on his scholarship and worldly learning as to whether it is a forgery or not. (verses 15- 18) [Update: NEPT brought to my attn that a closer look at the wording of these passages suggests that perhaps 1- the "learned man" is actually "learned men", plural. 2- He also points out that the text makes no mention of Egyptian characters. It is simply the translated passages that the servant is ask the learned men to read. Interesting and important observations! See also the comments emailed to me by Malachi which I have included in the comment section]
15- In summary, the Lord will deliver the book that is sealed AGAIN to the same Seer that he had delivered it to in the 2nd watch, who is not learned. The Lord will tell the Seer that the learned shall not be allowed to see the book because they have rejected the words. The Lord will state that "I am able to do my own work" of translation and I will show you the portion of words that are to go forth, just as I showed them to you in your mind during the work of translation the first time, during the 2nd watch! "Therefore don't touch the things that are sealed". I will bring them forth after the separation of the wheat and the tares. (verses 19- 23)
16- Etc., etc., etc.
Two things really struck me this time while reading the above passages.
First, the words of the sealed book come forth at a time when there are wars and rumors of wars while fires and tempests and vapors of smoke are being reported in foreign lands, which I find to be very exciting because it provides a much more specific way to target when the second portion of the book comes forth!
Second, we learn that in fact, the people of our generation will be tested the exact same way the people of the 2nd watch were tested! We don't get to see the book or even view the characters within the sealed book. We only get to read the translated portion of the words in the book. Joseph's second commission does not begin in POWER, rather in word only, to test the saints.
Words will be published to the world to the condemnation of some and the salvation of others!
They may come forth from someone who is not considered to be a credible source. It may come from a "nobody" who does not hold a high position in life and has not accumulated wealth or been successful according to the world or it may even be a historical figure from the past that is despised by Mormons and non-Mormons alike, perhaps it will be some one whose reputation has been marred that is called upon to be a forerunner to prepare the way for the Seer..
We will have the opportunity to read and discern if the published words are true or not.
The coming forth of records plays a huge part in the Marvelous Work and in the great test that is coming.
Ancient prophecy speaks of a time when God's work will be published to the world-
"Because I will publish the name of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God". Deut. 32: 3
5 Declare ye in Judah, and publish in Jerusalem; and say, Blow ye the trumpet in the land: cry, gather together, and say, Assemble yourselves, and let us go into the defenced cities.
6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.
7 The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant.
8 For this gird you with sackcloth, lament and howl: for the fierce anger of the Lord is not turned back from us http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jer/4/5,16#5
1 The word that the Lord spake against Babylon and against the land of the Chaldeans by Jeremiah the prophet.
2 Declare ye among the nations, and publish, and set up a standard; publish, and conceal not: say, Babylon is taken.
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jer/50/2#2
How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the Lord shall bring again Zion. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/52/7#7
It seems to me that there are three separate events where the words of the seed of Lehi come forth.
14 comments:
This is something I always struggle with when I try to interpret scripture and the signs of the times. That list that mormon gives in chapter 8 is specific but it could describe several times over the last few decades.
When he mentions vapors of smoke how big does it have to be to be a fullfillment. Do just ust one or two occurances count? I always figured that these signs, to avoid any confusion, would be prolific over much of the planet.
I'm probably wrong hoping for a more obvious fulfillment of these signs. I guess the only way to really know is by the spirit but I struggle with that too.
All the true signs of the last days are connected to one central cause: an approaching planet. The signs are the effects of such an astral encounter. As such, they occur in rapid succession, one on the heels of the other, over a 3-4 month period. Thus, the "signs" we speculate about, the ones we see from time to time around us now, are not those of prophecy. So, if one suspects that one natural calamity or another is a sign, all one need do is determine if there is an approaching astral interloper. If that intruder (Joseph said it would be recognized as a comet or planet) is not present in the near Earth environment, then we can be fairly certain that it is not one of the signs. Rather, it's probably just a run-of-the-mill natural disaster, part of the constant perils associated with living on this world. So, choosing to designate them as signs is misguided and disingenuous. Properly identifying the signs is a vital key to understanding prophecy. We need not live in constant fear that the world will end tomorrow, as so many proclaim. We need only be watchful, vigilant in tracking the movement of the planets to determine any irregularity that might portend a true last days event. I suggest you study signs in this context. It might prove more useful than all this emotional hand wringing.
Anthony,
I am looking forward to responding to your reply, but first, would you mind elaborating on the “disingenuous” part of your comment?
Anthony,
Let me assure you that whether I am correct or not in my opinions, I am sincere.
Regarding the rest of your chastisement, I appreciate you sharing your perspective because it illustrates how differently 3rd watchers view prophecy from those who reject the 3rd watch doctrine
(even though it is so clearly taught in the scriptures…. Including but not limited to the passages discussed in this very post which clearly testify that the Marvelous Work is a future event.)
Let me suggest that perhaps it is you that is waiting for the world to end, subject to your awaited planet.
I can certainly understand why those who reject the 3rd watch doctrine may be waiting for the world to end since they think the LDS missionaries are providing the last warning mentioned in section 1 and section 88 and since they presume to have the fulness of the priesthood that Enoch, Elijah and Melchizedek had.
Those of us who believe the Marvelous Work and a Wonder is a FUTURE event don’t “live in constant fear that the world will end tomorrow” because we don’t expect the world will end tomorrow.
There is no logical reason why it should.
It is illogical to assume the world will end tomorrow when the world still needs to be warned by the first laborers of the last kingdom before the judgments of God begin to fall on this nation and the world.
Myself and those who believe the Marvelous Work is a future event live in anxious and positive expectation that God is going to begin his marvelous work sometime in the near future.
We have been commanded to be found watching. That is all I am doing Anthony, I am anxiously waiting and watching for the Marvelous Work to begin.
Perhaps you are not watching for the Marvelous Work to begin because you think it began over 180 years ago.
We are anxiously looking forward to the publishing of additional records that were withheld from previous generations until the day when the gentiles repent.
We are anxiously looking forward to the time when Zion will put on her strength, which is to “put on the authority of the priesthood, which she, Zion, has a right to by lineage; also to RETURN to that power which SHE HAD LOST” (section 113)
We are anxiously awaiting the return of the spiritual gifts and other true signs that ALWAYS accompany the “only true and LIVING church”
I think terms like “misguided” might be more appropriately applied to those who claim to have above average knowledge of prophecy and the end times, yet they reject the overwhelming scriptural evidence that the marvelous work did not begin with the restoration of the Church.
(Rather, that period of time marked the beginning of the laying of the foundation for the Marvelous Work that is to come forth in a later generation.)
The signs of the times are spiritually discerned, Anthony, not scientifically decoded and intellectualized.
Those who reject the 3rd watch doctrine are waiting for the coming of the Lord in Glory and the end of the world.
Those of us who accept the 3rd watch doctrine are waiting for his servants to return and then for Him to return in secret like a thief in the night for the third time, during the dispensation of the fullness of times.
His coming in glory comes at a later time after those events. Hence, no need for the world to end just yet!
There are at least two time periods in the latter days that the scriptures speak of regarding signs in the heavens. One time period has to do with the beginning of the opening of the Marvelous Work, as discussed in this post. The other set of signs spoken of is just before His coming in glory.
to be continued..
Anthony, you made the following statement-
“All the true signs of the last days are connected to one central cause: an approaching planet. The signs are the effects of such an astral encounter”
I appreciate how passionate you are about your interpretation of this prophecy and your excitement about a planet, but that is not actually what the scriptures teach.
It is the approaching of CHRIST that all of the other signs are connected with regarding that particular time period.
Please note the scripture as it reads in the inspired version-
“And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
I would submit to you that the scripture says nothing about this planet which you have spent so much scientific study and energy on.
I would submit that a literal interpretation of the scripture is that it is the “Son of Man in Heaven” that is the “SIGN”.
According to the above passages, (and also Rev 6) the sign that causes all of the tribes of the earth to mourn is seeing the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven and wanting to hide from his face.
Anthony, you said “Joseph said it [the sign] would be recognized as a comet or planet”
That is not an accurate representation of what Joseph Smith is documented to have said in the history of the church (as taken from the dairy of Willard Richards).
Here is an excerpt of the sermon he gave on April 6th 1843,
"There will be wars and rumors of wars, signs in the heavens above and on the earth beneath, the sun turned into darkness and the moon to blood, earthquakes in divers places, the seas heaving themselves beyond their bounds; then will appear one grand sign of the Son of Man in heaven.
But what will the world do? They will say it is a planet, a comet, etc.
But the Son of Man will come as the sign of the coming of the Son of Man, which will be as the light of the morning cometh out of the east [see Joseph Smith - Matthew 1:26]."
He appears to be making a point of what the WORLD will be saying Anthony.
He is telling us what the WORLD will do. His telling us how the worldly, uninspired people will interpret this event when they first see the light which is generated by Christ’s glorious coming.
He is not telling us what the inspired prophets will be saying, he is telling us what the WORLD will be saying. The WORLD will be trying to trivialize it at first and credit it to natural phenomena such as a planet or a comet.
Anthony,
lest you think that my interpretation of that journal entry is not credible, here is a excerpt of the dairy entry of the exact same sermon by Burgess.
You will notice that he explicitly states that the sign is literally the coming of Christ’s glory which starts out small and then becomes brighter and brighter. Then he asks the following question-
“Shall the wicked understand it? Oh no, they attribute it to a NATURAL CAUSE THEY WILL PROBABLY SUPPOSE IT IS TWO GREAT COMETS COMING IN CONTACT WITH EACH OTHER” (spelling changes made by me)
Here is a larger portion of the transcript for context purposes-
“He says then shall they see the Sign of the coming of the Son of Man in the clouds of Heaven.
How are we to see it Ans. As the lighting up of the morning or the dawning of the morning cometh from the east and shineth unto the west--
So also is the coming of the Son of Man. The dawning of the Morning makes its appearance in the east and moves along gradually so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. it will be small at its first appearance and gradually becomes larger until every eye shall see it.
Shall the Saints understand it Oh yes. Paul says so. S
hall the wicked understand Oh no they attribute it to a natural cause.
They will probably suppose it is two great comets coming in contact with each other
It will be small at first and will grow larger and larger until it will be all in a blaze so that every eye shall see it. Joseph Smith the Prophet.”
BTW
Just as an interesting point of interest pertaining to how an analogy is being made between the light of the coming of the Son of man from the east to the west like the light of the Sun comes from east to west, Willard Richards original entry spelled Son as Sun, even though he spelled the word Son later in the same sentence correctly-
“consequently the sun [Son] of man will come as the sign of the coming of the son of man; is as the light of the morning cometh out of the east”
Did he make a mistake, or was he making a point?
Please visit again
I'm not trying to be contentious. I'm merely trying to show you a better interpretation. Rather than repeat what I've already written, may I suggest that you read the articles in my blog (www.mormonprophecy.blogspot.com). That might give you a better perspective.
As for watching, I have an alternate view as well. It is the heavens we should be watching for the warning signs. The latter part of Section 84 addresses that, and the Lord makes it clear that changing the "starry heavens" will be the cause of the Desolation of Abomination.
All I ask is that you consider my views as fully as I've considered yours. Read what I've written before you reject my views.
Anthony,
In your latest comments you said-
“It is the heavens we should be watching for the warning signs. The latter part of Section 84 addresses that, and the Lord makes it clear that changing the "starry heavens" will be the cause of the Desolation of Abomination.”
Per your suggestion, I just read the short post you did in 2008 concerning the “starry heavens” entitled “The Keys to Prophesy 8 The Grand Sign”.
I think you are missing the most important sign that section 84 is revealing to us in regard to the starry heavens and other signs in the earth and heaven.
In your post, you only quote part of the passage as follows,
"… I will rend their kingdoms; I will not only shake the earth, but the starry heavens shall tremble. For I, the Lord, have put forth my hand to exert the powers of heaven; ye cannot see it now, yet a little while and ye shall see it”
Based on the partial quotation that you provided, the reader is led to believe that God is going to rend the kingdoms of the world, and shake the earth and make the starry heavens tremble.
HOWEVER
Let us view the passage in its entirety,
“FOR WITH YOU, SAITH THE LORD ALMIGHTY, I will rend their kingdoms; I will not only shake the earth, but the starry heavens shall tremble.”
As you know, section 84 was given to Joseph Smith and six elders. (see verse 1)
The point God is making to them and to those of us privileged enough to have access to this sacred prophecy is that God is going to use those specific servants to rend the kingdoms, shake the earth and make the starry heavens tremble!
A few verses prior to that (see verse 117) God informs us that he will first send those exact same servants to reprove the world in righteousness and to set forth clearly, exactly what the desolation of abomination is so that we can be adequately warned.
From this revelation we have the unconditional promise from God that His designated servants will return to warn us BEFORE those specific signs appear!
The first great sign we should be watching for is the return of Gods servants!
The grand key to understanding modern revelation is found in the following two verses contained in section 1
“Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled.
What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same." (1:37-38)
According to God’s own words, every unconditional promise that he makes will come to pass.
The prophecies we are discussing in section 84 are unconditional promises that God has made.
I now throw the ball back into your court Anthony.
Show me where I am wrong.
Explain to me why you do not believe the servants are coming back.
Help me understand why you don’t believe the unconditional promises in section 84 and why you don’t use your website, blog, books and seminars to boldly testify of the return of Gods servants in the third watch when the Marvelous Work begins.
Hey Watcher,
Great post!
A subtlety on which I have not been entirely sold, however, is if we will actually see a repeat of what happened when MH took a copy of BoM characters to Anthon. It may be that the Anthon incident was a shadow fulfillment, but the literal fulfillment in the 3rd watch may not necessarily involve bringing ancient characters to a learned MAN to interpret, but rather declaring the words (not ancient characters) of the book to learned MEN who reject the words because they cannot have the book for themselves.
With the exception of that pesky little "I" in verse 15 ("I" will read them), the Lord speaks of "the" learned (not "a" learned) in plural terms (i.e., they)
15 But behold, it shall come to pass that the Lord God shall say unto him to whom he shall deliver the book: Take these words which are not sealed and deliver them to another, that he may show them unto the learned, saying: Read this, I pray thee. And the learned shall say: Bring hither the book, and I will read them.
16 And now, because of the glory of the world and to get again will they say this, and not for the glory of God.
17 And the man shall say: I cannot bring the book, for it is sealed.
18 Then shall the learned say: I cannot read it.
19 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that the Lord God will deliver again the book and the words thereof to him that is not learned; and the man that is not learned shall say: I am not learned.
20 Then shall the Lord God say unto him: The learned shall not read them, for they have rejected them, and I am able to do mine own work; wherefore thou shalt read the words which I shall give unto thee.
It's definitely a subtlety, most likely not even important, but just so that we're not waiting for something to happen that may not happen.
Anxiously awaiting,
NEPT
NEPT
You said
"the literal fulfillment in the 3rd watch may not necessarily involve bringing ancient characters to a learned MAN to interpret, but rather declaring the words (not ancient characters) of the book to learned MEN who reject the words because they cannot have the book for themselves."
I totally agree with you. That is how I read it also.
That is one of several indicators, along with the fact that the entire chapter is speaking about the words in the sealed portion, not the unsealed portion, that reveals that it is speaking literally about the 3rd watch!
I got the following email from Malachi which I thought was quite interesting.
I had not seen the distinction between the calling of the three witnesses in the 2nd watch vs the three witnesses in the 3rd watch.
(we still need to find out whether it is the same group of three or a separate group of three)
I was excited about some comparisons that I see between the 2nd Watch Three Witnesses and the 3rd Watch Three Witnesses. It seems to me that the 2nd Watch Three was only to testify as to seeing the plates and the 3rd Watch Three will play a very proactive role of taking the book and the word to the world. I wouldn't doubt that you just haven't had time to point this out but here's my take.
*_2nd Watch Three Witnesses_*
With the calling of Oliver, David and Martin the emphasis is on viewing the plates and other artifacts and testifying to the world that they saw these things that Joseph may not be destroyed.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 17:1 - 5)
1 BEHOLD, I say unto you, that you must rely upon my word, which if you do with full purpose of heart, *_you shall have a view of the plates, and also of the breastplate, the sword of Laban, the Urim and Thummim_*, which were given to the brother of Jared upon the mount, when he talked with the Lord face to face, *_and the miraculous directors_* which were given to Lehi while in the wilderness, on the borders of the Red Sea.
2 And it is by your faith that *_you shall obtain a view of them_*, even by that faith which was had by the prophets of old.
3 And after that you have obtained faith, and *_have seen them with your eyes, you shall testify of them_*, by the power of God;
4 And this you shall do *_that my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., may not be
destroyed,_* that I may bring about my righteous purposes unto the children of men in this work.
5 And ye shall *_testify that you have seen them_*, even as my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., has seen them; for it is by my power that he has seen them, and it is because he had faith.
In fact they are told, at least Martin, that they are not to say anything else to this (2nd Watch) generation except that they saw them ant those are the words they will use. For myself I think the former three witnesses are part of the Spiritual 12 of section 84.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 5:1) 1 BEHOLD, I say unto you, that as my servant Martin Harris has desired a witness at my hand, that you, my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., *_have got the plates of which you have
testified_* and borne record that you have received of me; (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 5:24 - 26) 24 Behold, I say unto him, he exalts himself and does not humble himself sufficiently before me; but if he will bow down before me, and humble himself in mighty prayer and faith, in the sincerity of his heart, *_then will I grant unto him a view of the things which he desires to see_*.
25 And _*then he shall say unto the people of this generation: Behold, I have seen the things which the Lord hath shown unto Joseph Smith, Jun., and I know of a surety that they are true, for I have seen them, for they have been shown unto me by the power of God and not of man*_.
26 And I the Lord command him, my servant Martin Harris, *_that he shall say no more unto them concerning these things, except he shall say: I have seen them, and they have been shown unto me by the power of God; and these are the words which he shall say_*.
to be continued
*_3rd Watch Three Witnesses_*
The 3rd Watch Three have a different calling of taking the words and the Book to the world.
(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 27:12 - 14)
12 Wherefore, at that day when the book shall be delivered unto the man of whom I have spoken, the book shall be hid from the eyes of the world, that the eyes of none shall behold it save it be *_that three witnesses shall behold it_*, by the power of God, besides him to whom the book shall be delivered; _*and they shall testify to the truth of the book and the things therein*_.
13 And there is none other which shall view it, save it be a few according to the will of God, to bear testimony of his word unto the children of men; for the Lord God hath said that the words of the faithful should speak as if it were from the dead.
14 Wherefore, the Lord God will proceed to bring forth the words of the book; and *_in the mouth of as many witnesses as seemeth him good will he establish his word_*; and wo be unto him that rejecteth the word of God!
(Book of Mormon | Ether 5:2 - 3)
2 And behold, ye may be privileged that ye may *_show the plates unto those who shall assist to bring forth this work_*;
3 *_And unto three shall they be shown_* by the power of God; wherefore they shall know of a surety that these things are true.
In D&C 5 verses 10-22 has nothing to do with Martin Harris but about the future three Witnesses. Their testimony takes place at the beginning of 3rd Watch which is the rising up and the coming forth of the church out of the wilderness and it is before the desolating scourge that will go forth among the inhabitants of the earth.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 5:10 - 22) 10 But this generation shall have my word through you;
11 *_And in addition to your testimony, the testimony of three of my servants, whom I shall call and ordain, unto whom I will show these things, and they shall go forth with my words that are given through you_*.
12 Yea, they shall know of a surety that these things are true, for from heaven will I declare it unto them.
13 I will give them power that they may behold and view these things as they are;
14 *_And to none else will I grant this power, to receive this same testimony among this generation, in this the beginning of the rising up and the coming forth of my church out of the wilderness—clear as the moon, and fair as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners_*.
15 *_And the testimony of three witnesses will I send forth of my word_*.
16 And behold, whosoever believeth on my words, them will I visit with the manifestation of my Spirit; and they shall be born of me, even of water and of the Spirit—
17 And you must wait yet a little while, for ye are not yet ordained—
18 _*And their testimony shall also go forth unto the condemnation of this generation*_ if they harden their hearts against them;
19 _*For a desolating scourge shall go forth among the inhabitants of the earth*_, and shall continue to be poured out from time to time, if they repent not, until the earth is empty, and the inhabitants thereof are consumed away and utterly destroyed by the brightness of my coming.
20 Behold, I tell you these things, even as I also told the people of the destruction of Jerusalem; and my word shall be verified at this time as it hath hitherto been verified.
21 And now I command you, my servant Joseph, to repent and walk more uprightly before me, and to yield to the persuasions of men no more;
22 And that you be firm in keeping the commandments wherewith I have commanded you; and if you do this, behold I grant unto you eternal life, even if you should be slain.
Watcher,
I've just e-mailed you. I hope that you receive it. If not, please let me know how I can contact you. I contacted you through a link that led me to a profile with "about.me." I await your response eagerly. Thank you for everything.
Did you get my reply?
If not, email me directly at
onewhoiswatching [at] gmail dot com
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