tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1749680236621844342.post2913459738875649900..comments2023-09-11T02:47:32.772-07:00Comments on Three Watches: Baptism and ConsecrationSomeone who is watchinghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08266423098112644052noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1749680236621844342.post-14066737077255272742009-04-29T15:40:00.000-07:002009-04-29T15:40:00.000-07:00I'm still thinking about the "fruit" meet of repen...I'm still thinking about the "fruit" meet of repentance. <br /><br />A Gnostic Christian-who believes in the BoM- said he believes that we must spit out the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.<br /><br />Perhaps it is only through spitting out the fruit of "that tree" that we have room to receive the fruit of the Tree of Life.<br /><br />Alma 5:62<br /> 62 I speak by way of command unto you that belong to the church; and unto those who do not belong to the church I speak by way of invitation, saying: Come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye also may be partakers of the fruit of the tree of life.TruthSeekerToonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1749680236621844342.post-53568448376078624002009-04-29T08:39:00.000-07:002009-04-29T08:39:00.000-07:00Whoah, I just realized something...
All baptisms ...Whoah, I just realized something...<br /><br />All baptisms have been rejected since the failure of the early saints. Not only will we all be rebaptised. And I knew we had to redo the bap's for the dead. What never dawned on me was that we'll have to redo all the people baptised while alive, too. So, pretty much everyone save a few.<br /><br />Ok, I guess I'm slow. That is why we are gonna need 1000 years.<br />Slowly, slowly it all begins to fit together.TruthSeekerToonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1749680236621844342.post-55006952159233207662009-04-28T04:47:00.000-07:002009-04-28T04:47:00.000-07:00TruthSeeker
You said;
"Whether we agree to disag...TruthSeeker<br /><br />You said;<br /><br />"Whether we agree to disagree or not, It has been a fun debate. God bless"<br /><br />It has been a fun debate.<br /><br />Hopefully it is motivating people to evaluate and understand the baptismal covenant at a deeper, more meaningful level.<br /><br />I appreciate those who have forced this debate because it is a very important one.<br /><br />It is interesting that out of all of the heretical stuff that I produce, which one would think would be challenged, the topic that seems to create so much indigestion is one of the most basic and most talked about doctrines in the scriptures.<br /><br />I think this debate is extremely important.<br /><br />I feel that if people understood that all true doctrines, covenants, ordinances and commandments are part of the New and Everlasting Covenant of being born again by water, blood and spirit (baptism) they would not get duped into believing that there are "higher laws" and "higher endowments" that contradict what they erroneously consider to be the "lessor laws" and "lessor endowments" associated with baptism.<br /><br />I elaborate a little more on this topic in the following post which is not for the faint of heart;<br /><br />http://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/2009/04/24/black-and-white-robes-part-one/Someone who is watchinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08266423098112644052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1749680236621844342.post-63605706870367147832009-04-27T23:26:00.000-07:002009-04-27T23:26:00.000-07:00Just wanted to clarify that post #1 by truthseeker...Just wanted to clarify that post #1 by truthseeker is not me. =)TruthSeekerToonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1749680236621844342.post-2788023892967195932009-04-27T21:18:00.000-07:002009-04-27T21:18:00.000-07:00Anonymous2
What in the world does the lord mean wh...Anonymous2<br />What in the world does the lord mean when he has made certain people contemptible and base? Why is he planning on burning so many people?<br /><br />You mention many scriptures that you claim say nothing about covenanting to live consecration. I have pasted from a few of these scriptures to pose a few questions.<br /><br />"All those who humble themselves before God" <br />Could giving up all of your worldly possessions to the bishops storehouse possibly be part of humbling yourself before God? <br /><br />"and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins"<br />Could relying on God completely by turning over everything temporal be a way to truly manifesting by your works that you have received the spirit of Christ?<br /><br />"And he commandeth all men that they must repent" <br />Could part of that repenting be the love of money and possessions?<br /><br />Let me now clarify that I don't think everything God says is referring to consecration. I am simply shocked that when Watcher showed two clear references that baptism is a covenant your defense was to show scriptures that could easily be making reference to consecration unless you can tell us exactly what it entails to "humble yourself before God" <br /> <br />I will quote watchers scripture from this post again.<br /> 15 Yea, I say unto you come and fear not, and lay aside every sin, which easily doth beset you, which doth bind you down to destruction, yea, come and go forth, and show unto your God that ye are willing to repent of your sins and enter into a covenant with him to keep his commandments, and witness it unto him this day by going into the waters of baptism. <br /><br />So I hope we can agree that baptism is a covenant to keep the Lords commandments. <br /><br />Section 42<br /> 29 If thou lovest me thou shalt serve me and keep all my commandments. <br />30 And behold, thou wilt remember the poor, and consecrate of thy properties for their support that which thou hast to impart unto them, with a covenant and a deed which cannot be broken. <br /><br />This covenant to consecrate is baptism!! But even if it wasn't, it is a commandment which you do covenant through baptism to follow. <br /><br />Whether we agree to disagree or not, It has been a fun debate. God bless<br /><br />P.S.<br />I hope more weigh in on where they stand on this principle of salvationtruthseekernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1749680236621844342.post-78130422394727715142009-04-27T20:47:00.000-07:002009-04-27T20:47:00.000-07:00We do covenant with God at the Time of Baptism. It...We do covenant with God at the Time of Baptism. It takes the two Parties to Agree to make a covenant. The first party is the one being Baptised and the second party is The one Baptising. With Gods Authority.Then we convenant that we will dedicate our lives to him to serve him. witch of course means all of his Laws and Commandments. If at that time The Lords Church is living Consecration then we are commanded to live and concecrate everything to the Lord and if the commandment isn't followed it is Sin. Just as if we killed someone or lied or commited adultry. I think that we need to remember that Money or possesions our given from God. What ever the Lord ask of us as a Sacrifice is right. He asked a little more of Job and Daniel. Does your Money mean that much to you Anonymous?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1749680236621844342.post-24006233394541236372009-04-27T19:21:00.000-07:002009-04-27T19:21:00.000-07:00Anonymous2
The natural man is an enemy to God. Un...Anonymous2<br /><br />The natural man is an enemy to God. Until we repent we are contemptable to God. The scripture means what is says.<br /><br />We are not all his children, we have the opportunity to BECOME the sons of God through the Gospel.<br /><br />You may want to read the post located at the following url and then you can respond to it to show me where I am wrong;<br /><br />http://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/2009/03/19/i-will-ascend-into-heaven-i-will-exalt-my-throne-above-the-stars-of-god-i-will-sit-also-upon-the-mount-of-the-congregation-i-will-ascend-above-the-heights-of-the-clouds-i-will-be-like-the-most-h/<br /><br />While I don't agree with how you are interpreting the scriptures regarding this particular point, and don't feel that you responded to D&C 22, You have done some great research and you have shown from the scriptures why you feel the way you do and I admire and appreciate that.<br /><br />Just out of curiosity, do you personally know Anonymous1 ?Someone who is watchinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08266423098112644052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1749680236621844342.post-52147378419771823462009-04-27T18:55:00.000-07:002009-04-27T18:55:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Someone who is watchinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08266423098112644052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1749680236621844342.post-13306382689538791102009-04-27T18:25:00.000-07:002009-04-27T18:25:00.000-07:00Anonymous2 back...
(TruthSeekerToo: I don't t...Anonymous2 back...<br /><br />(TruthSeekerToo: I don't think the Lord finds many people contemptible, we are all his children. I would be careful about taking the name of the Lord in vain, it does not mean what you probably think it does.)<br /><br />OneWhoIsWatching<br /><br />I apologize for not including scriptures to back up my arguments, which I will do so now. <br /><br />D&C 20: 77<br />O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.<br /><br />And verse 79<br />O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this wine to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.<br /><br />So in the sacrament we clearly do enter into a covenant. <br /><br />We covenant to: <br /><br />- Witness that we are willing to take upon us the name of Jesus (thy Son). <br />- Always remember him (Jesus).<br />- Keep his commandments<br />God covenants to:<br />- Always have his spirit with us.<br /><br />One often hears people state that they renewed their baptismal covenants every week while taking the sacrament. Well, if that is true, what exactly are we covenanting at baptism? <br /><br />Here is the scripture in the D&C that deals with baptism requirements and it says:<br /><br />D&C 20:37<br />And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.<br />In this scripture it says that the requirements for baptism are:<br />- Humble yourself before God<br />- Desire to be baptized<br />- Come forth with a broken heart and contrite spirit<br />- Witness before the church that they have truly repented of their sins<br />- Be willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ<br />- Have a determination to serve him (Jesus) to the end,<br />- Manifest by (your) works that you have received the spirit of Christ unto the remission of your sins.<br /><br />The only part that is similar to the sacramental covenant is the part that says that the candidate for baptism “be willing to take upon them the name of Christ”. But even with that similarity it is abundantly clear that at baptism we do not enter into a default covenant. Baptism is the gateway to the kingdom of God and certainly required for salvation, this teaching is abundantly clear by any basic study of the scriptures but just to name a few scriptures that say this:<br /><br />3 Nephi 11:33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.<br /><br />3 Nephi 11: 38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.<br /><br />2 Nephi 9: 23 And he commandeth all men that they must repent, and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.<br /><br />Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.<br />So, to clarify up to this point… The scriptures do say that we must be baptized to inherit the Kingdom of God but they do not say anything about us entering into a covenant at baptism. <br /><br />Now to be fair to those that believe that baptism is a covenant I must make it clear that there are two scriptures (that I can find) in the scriptures that do have example of individuals entering into a covenant at baptism. These are found at:<br /><br />Alma 7:15 Yea, I say unto you come and fear not, and lay aside every sin, which easily doth beset you, which doth bind you down to destruction, yea, come and go forth, and show unto your God that ye are willing to repent of your sins and enter into a covenant with him to keep his commandments, and witness it unto him this day by going into the waters of baptism.<br /><br />And:<br />Mosiah 18: 10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?<br /><br />Both of these scriptures seem to show examples of individuals entering into a covenant with the Lord when they are baptized. However, there is an interesting aspect of both of these situations, made especially clear in the verse in Alma. In Alma 7 the prophet Alma the younger is on a mission to fix the church. <br /><br />Alma 6:8 precedes the sermon in Alma 7 by saying that:<br /><br />And Alma went and began to declare the word of God unto the church which was established in the valley of Gideon, according to the revelation of the truth of the word which had been spoken by his fathers, and according to the spirit of prophecy which was in him, according to the testimony of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who should come to redeem his people from their sins, and the holy order by which he was called. And thus it is written. Amen.<br /><br />So, the verse in Alma 7 that talks about entering into a covenant at baptism was being given to members of the church, Alma was telling members of the church, who obviously had already been baptized previously, to be re-baptized!<br /><br />This is also the case in Mosiah 18. <br /><br />The people that Alma the elder taught had most likely already been baptized, they just were not living the way that they should have been. While King Noah was a wicked man, most of us neglect to recognize that during his “reign” he was the “president” of the church, hence the “priests of King Noah”. When they (the righteous people that were converted by Alma the Elder) went to the Waters of Mormon they were forsaking the world that they had been living in and recommitting to following the covenants that they had made with the Lord. A part of this recommitment was rebaptism, and in this rebaptism the people covenanted to uphold covenants that we make every time we take the sacrament. Once they began to listen to Alma (a church heretic=)) they repented of their sins and signified that repentance with a rebaptism with accompanying covenants.<br /><br />We do not make a default covenant at our “baptism” (although we are free to make covenants at baptisms if it is what we personally want to do). Therefore, when we talk of renewing our baptismal covenants with the sacrament, it is incorrect. The sacrament is not a renewal of a baptismal covenant, it is its own covenant altogether.<br /><br />This is brand new doctrine to me as well, it is only in the last month that I have found it but I don't see you as the type of guy that scoffs at new doctrine simply because it is different, especially considering some of the things that I have read on your blog, which is full of looking at the scriptures in new ways. Try this new way:<br /><br />1. In the D&C when the Lord lays out the requirements of baptism any sign of a covenant is blaringly absent.<br /><br />2. Joseph Smith never spoke of any type of "covenant" at baptism (That I can find and I have gone through the entire "Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith" looking)<br /><br />3. There are only two places in the scriptures where it is apparent that people are entering into covenants at baptism.<br /><br />4. At each of these points in the scriptures the people that are being baptized are identified as already being members of the church (already having been baptized previously)<br /><br />Can't you see where the doctrinal waters have been muddied? At some point someone in the church put two and two together and said "boy, that covenant that the Nephites make in Mosiah and Alma sounds just like the sacrament covenant" and suddenly we are teaching that the sacrament is an opportunity to "renew our baptismal covenants" absent any real evidence showing that, all we have is a correlation between some baptisms in the scriptures and similar wording to the sacramental covenant.<br /><br />Don't you think that if baptism was really a default covenant that the Lord would have told us clearly in D&C 20? Instead the mention of a baptismal covenant is glaringly absent, and that is silence that speaks volumes. Why would the Lord leave out something that we feel is SO crucial?<br /><br />I do not claim to know everything, heaven knows that I have a lot to learn in my progression but perhaps it would have been showing respect to inquire as to why I had such a seemingly "crazy" viewpoint before coming down in what you likely felt was "righteous indignation".<br /><br />There is more truth out there then either of us know, and sometimes things that we have been staring at our whole lives take on a different from when we look at them from new angles. <br /><br />God is all about showing us "new angles".<br /><br />(in closing... you CAN enter into a covenant at baptism if you like and I would assume that for the last 100 years we all have been doing so because we all meet with the bishop who tells us what we are covenanting. However, my argument is simply that the Lord does not require it, especially not at our initial baptism.)<br /><br />Anonymous2Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1749680236621844342.post-5122280536869307952009-04-26T20:58:00.000-07:002009-04-26T20:58:00.000-07:00Game, Set, Match!
It's final, if you don't think b...Game, Set, Match!<br />It's final, if you don't think baptism is an all encompassing covenant to follow all of Gods laws then Malachi and the Lord find you contemptible...<br /><br />Watcher, <br />I do have to agree with anonymous on your pride. That many references to make your point is clearly showing off.truthseekernoreply@blogger.com